Developers don’t like the tool that’s being lied about in order for like 100 rich maniacs with precarious tech stock portfolios to have an excuse to attack our profession, our wages, our stability. Just so they can retain the rate of profit that they experienced under covid 19 restrictions, because of us.

That’s because we aren’t idiots. We made them rich and theyre like “y’all could use a quality of life reduction.” Of course we don’t like it, it has little to do with marketing.

This does not boad well

Hang in there, keep fighting

The way finitebanjo defines it though, as anyone who rightly opposes US imperialism as being a tankie, is what I’m arguing against. I’m arguing against conveniently abstracted generalization of messy histories that support a very very narrow view, which defines most leftists as “evil tankies.”

I’m arguing against any views, coming from tankies or progressive liberals, that statically categorize historical and political relations, which are inherently dynamic and change over time. I’m arguing against sacrificing deep understanding at the altar of some slanderous and IMO dangerous mischaracterization of most leftists.

I think its possible that you, as someone who seems to feel comfortable using the term tankie, don’t understand the way it warps actual political discourse away from radical but sometimes correct positions, and toward ineffectual online camps. I’m aware of the kind of weird super online left that takes up their own ignorant campist positions and defends them with like memes. Sometimes these people even crop up in actual organizing and can wreak havok if they get control, I can think of a few examples of real life “tankies” causing great harm to our movements. But it is very rare.

In fact if you ever meet like a “Stalinist” or as you might call them, “tankie”, from a third world country, they are completely unlike the white western online tankie that you’re referring to. They have certain questionable views which the synthetic online tankies try to copy, but their practical activity, their organizing work, is incredibly serious, well intentioned, effective and engages actual exploited people in a revolutionary way.

But the way Tankie gets defined sometimes, it seems like anyone who reads and understands Lenin is a trump supporter, which is totally wrong, but exactly how I would describe finitebanjo’s polemics. This would put people like Paulo Friere in the category of tankie because he has certain third worldist sensibilites despite being probably the greatest humanist theorist since Marx himself. Considering that this is an author and educator often taught in even christian seminary schools, as well as many secular advanced degree programs, and also studied seriously by every left tendency, the definition of tankie often completely misses the mark.

Maybe I am mis-stating that point a little, I don’t know what is in peoples hearts when they use the term. But as someone who is definitely active on the communist left and not a tankie, even anti-tankie peeps don’t call me that, that is how it looks to me. The way that I avoid becoming a tankie is by studying, reflecting and applying theory in a practical way. Arguing that I am misunderstanding the situation seems to refute everything that makes me a principled leftist. So I have a hard time with your characterization of my arguments.

I’m not defending tankies, I’m disagreeing with your extremely narrow categories, that would define 90% of non tankie leftists as tankies.

I’m not making a strawman when I say that support for us imperialism is support for the Palestinian genocide. That’s just like common knowledge at this point.

Flattening Sanders entire political career, which started out with him organizing as a socialist, into a narrow category is as dishonest as doing the same with the history of the USSR. There is not much worth defending about the Stalinist bureaucracy that the USSR became. Even throwing the USSR and China in the same bucket when referring to Sanders is a historical revision, since Sanders entire political life began after the Sino/Soviet split. However information about the atrocities of Stalin came from Kruschev. Trotskyists and anti-authoritarian communists, like CLR James, could see that much was wrong with the USSR, but the truth wasn’t revealed until the 60s. Other great american communist organizers like James Cannon mistakenly cooperated with the Comintern, who systematically destroyed the movements in the USA that got us our new deal. Cannon and many others were eventually purged from the american socialist movement, turning it into yet another husk of the workers movement under the auspices of the “communist international.”

After the Vietnam war, the USA and China both supported the Khmer Rouge against the Vietnamese communists, who were supported by the USSR. Are you a supporter of the USA’s war in Viet Nam? Or the Khmer Rouge? I certainly hope not!

Dealing with reality isn’t a strawman, unless you’re an idealist. I hope you aren’t waiting for the good capitalists to save us from our current situation, because our version of capitalism is irredeemable. We are in the late stage, which only means that we are part of the global financialized economy. An economy that enslaves the third world, and huge swaths of the first world, in order to keep its ruling classes.

If you are in favor of having a ruling class, which would still exist under social democracy, then IMO your position is closer to trumps than any leftist. And I work with thousands of leftists all over the world. Look at how European social democracies are also being taken over by fascist parties. It is not a realistic defense against fascism.

Trumps whole strategy, which is actually the strategy of the global tech elite, is to crash the US economy to force an asset bubble (recession) onto the EU. At which point, anti-immigrant fascistic parties will mobilize their message to overturn the “good capitalist” social democratic reforms and allow capitalist destruction of the welfare state.

Social democracy is falling apart in real time, and I think you can’t see it because you have no theory of change. You see things categorically rather than dynamically, which removes you from actual conditions. As much as I’d like to disabuse you of those notions, you seem pretty committed to your narrow idealist views, which is a shame as we could use more spicy fighters on our side against Trump, and less performative resistance that only contributes to mass confusion.

That is a total and complete lie. DSA, the largest socialist org in the USA in 100 years is unwaveringly against us imperialism and capitalism, and Trump. There are virtually no tankies in DSA, even the most ml aligned factions in DSA are not “tankies” as you try to slander.

Democratic socialism is opposed to imperialism and capitalism, none too fond of China or Russia (though I’m sure if you bad faith make certain generalizations you could make illogical connections to suit your purpose), virulently anti Trump and “tankies” when they pop up in our org usually become disengaged ineffective sectarian hyper minorities, though they rarely pop up at all.

In fact if you aren’t opposed to US imperialism, you are on the right wing, and have no right to speak on it. Do you think the genocide in Palestine is a left wing position? Be serious

Most people have confused politics. If you want to land somewhere you need to educate yourself and develop principles so that instead of not knowing where you’ll land, you’ll know exactly where you stand

The ACP is the only american so-called communist org that supports Trump, and virtually every other segment of the serious organized left considers them a fascist org. Don’t buy into fascist framing of issues or you are working for the fascists when you spread them

In many cases, I think so. People everywhere get their morality from culture. Since many people are raised conservative, and risk damaging their social connection in their community by straying from conservative values, people can be very protective of certain social conventions and perspectives, out of fear of social isolation or even alienating themselves from their actual nature in order to adhere to social convention.

Its an understatement to say that the far right/fascism weaponizes this fact. But many many conservatives are workers which means that they share lived exploitation with the rest of us. Capitalism is the force that divides the working class, and when we participate in divisive/sectarian tendencies then whatever ideology we claim, leftist or whatever, then we are carrying water for the billionaire class.

Its not always that simple though. Many people experience real trauma by having conservative values thrust upon them. Objective morality is a plague, but so is dualism. We need to think completely differently and work with others to navigate these dynamics

I disagree that left of center is more nuanced than communism. Most communists historically reject all forms of sectarianism, although we can fall into it anyway for a lot of reasons. I have love and admiration for many progressive liberals, and leftists that are not communists (commies are often not the most left faction, leninists tend to be more center left.) When you get to this level of analysis though, left right and center stop being useful and you have to dig into actual issues and political action.

But many progressive liberals are wrongheaded or idealist and dualist, which is not conducive to nuance. But also people are often much more deep and full of insight than their politics suggest

Define tankie? What is this based on?

Yes, you can even be a communist without being a tankie.

Literally just the most basic Marxist definition of the state. Calling this incoherent is an epic self own.

Incapable/unwilling to understand is completely district from impossible to be understood.

That sounds rippin

What is the difference between a raven and a crow? One major difference is that ravens have 3 pinion feathers on each wing, whereas crows only have two.

So its really just a difference of a pinion

Oh, its a kink. That makes more sense

The writer marketplace? Yeah I tend to overdo it.

Ken Klippenstein isn’t some random dude. He wrote for the Nation (one of the only media outlets that pushed back against the right’s angelic charactetization of Kirk) and the Intercept. He is definitely a leftist, definitely opposed to the right wing, and a good serious journalist.

When you call me an “enlightened centrist” then to me you are calling me an enemy. I am not a centrist, I’m a communist. I am active in national and local politics through DSA, and part of a faction (R&R) on the left of the largest american socialist org in 100 years. I have my own entry on KeyWiki (a site that doxxes left wing organizers) and consider it a badge of honor. I care about facts, because I care about being credible to people we need to win over to our side.

I believe these issues are serious and I take them seriously, as do our enemies. I think you may have talent as a polemicist, but that’s not my role and I resist the quixotic insistence that polemics are objective fact.

You’re trying to discredit me but I don’t need your credit.

My reading of what you said was that there was no basis for Robinson’s relationship to a trans person. you know damn well I can’t account for those lines as they come from court documents.

Retreating to a specificity in a disagreement is not a way to make yourself right, its a way to make me wrong. If I want to, I can retreat to some generality where I feel right and you appear to be wrong. This is exactly the kind of campist reasoning I try to avoid in good faith.

My whole point was to caution against conspiratorial thinking, which is something i admit I also get caught up in very easily. I acknowledge that a fight has its own logic, and that logic does not always lead to the discovery of fact, but can deepen misunderstanding. You clearly disagree with me which is fine. I’m not trying to give you a lecture or give the right a pass. I fight the right every day in my communities through political organizing, others oppose the right in different ways. We need all hands on deck, pulling the same direction to reverse the momentum of forces organized against us.

I’m trying to caution someone who I view as an ally not to fall into a trap. You try to characterize me as an enemy because I ask you to show caution. I am not your enemy. This is exactly how the people in power motivate narratives in order to divide regular people so we can’t fight them together.

But I promise you, being a conspiratorial crank will not win people over to our side. That’s why I try to resist it in myself and urge caution in others. But you do you, I’m not the thought cops.

Ken Klippenstein verified some of these details in his interviews and research https://www.kenklippenstein.com/p/exclusive-leaked-messages-from-charlie

You do realize that just believing the opposite of what your enemy says is not engaging in factual analysis right? Our enemies can, and do, twist their narratives in many ways in order to obscure facts by encouraging tribalist, campist justification in their enemies (us.)