Hear me out on this one:
If we take it as given that pedophilia is a disorder and ultimatly a sickness, wouldn’t it be better that these people get their fix from AI created media than from the real thing?
IMO there was no harm done to any kid in the creation of this and it would be better to give these people the fix they need or at least desperately desire in this way before they advance to more desperate and harmful measures.
Some of the comments here are so stupid: “either they unpedophile themselves or we just kill them for their thoughts”
Ok so let me think this through. Sexual preferences in any way or pretty normal and they don’t go away. Actually if you tend to ignore them they become stronger. Also being a pedophile is not a crime currently. It’s the acting on it. So what happens right now is that people bottle it up, then it gets too much and they act on it in gruesome ways, because “if I go to prison I might as well make sure it was worth it”. Kids get hurt.
“But we could make thinking about it illegal!” No we can’t. Say that’s a law, what now? If you don’t like someone, they’re a “pedophile”. Yay more false imprisonment. Also what happens to real pedophiles? Well they start commit more acts because theres punishment even for restraint. And the truth is a lot of ppl have pedophilic tendencies. You will not catch all of them. Things will just get worse.
So why AI? Well as the commenter above me already said, if there’s no victim, there’s no problems. While that doesn’t make extortion legal (I mean obv. it’s a different law), this could make ppl with those urges have more restraint. We could even still limit it to specific sites and make it non-shareable. We’d have more control over it.
I know ppl still want the easy solution which evidently doesn’t work, but imo this is a perfect solution.
I largely agree with what you’re saying and there definitely is no easy solution. I’ve never understood why drawings or sex dolls depicting underage people are illegal in some places, as they are victimless crimes.
The issue with aigen that differentiates it a bit from the above is the fidelity. You can tell a doll or an anime isn’t real, but in a few years from now it’ll b difficult to spot aigen images. This isn’t unique to this scenario though, it’s going to wreck havok on politics, scams, etc, but there is the potential that real CP comes out from hiding and is somewhat shielded by the aigen.
Of course this is just speculation, I hope it would go the other way around and everyone just jacks off at their computers and CP disappears completely. We need to stop focusing our attention on people with pedophila, get them mental support, and focus on sex offenders who are actually hurting people.
I’m all for letting people have their dolls, drawings, and AI generated stuff, but yeah… it would become easy for offenders to say “Naw, I snatched that shit off of DALL-E.” and walk in court, so some kind of forensic tool that can tell AI Generated Images from Real Ones would have to be made…
Actually there’s a lot of reasons we’d want a tool like that that have nothing to do with hypothetical solutions to kiddie diddling.
Can you imagine how easy extortion would become if you could show an AI pictures of your neighbor next door killing some rando missing person in the area? But every new technology enables crime, until we find out what the proper safeguards are so I’m not too worried about it in the long-term.
It’s also worth remembering that to make super accurate pictures of children the AI may have been trained on illegal photos (on purpose or not)
But that’s an issue for the AI creator
I pretty much agree, while we should never treat Pedophilia as “Just another perfectly valid sexuality, let’s throw a parade, it’s nothing to be ashamed of” (Having the urge to prey on children is ABSOLUTELY something to be ashamed of even if you can’t control it.), we need to face facts… It isn’t someone waking up one day and saying “Wouldn’t it be funny if I took little Billy out back and filled him full of cock?”
It’s something going on in their head, something chemical, some misfiring of the neurons, just the way their endocrine system is built.
As much as I’d love to wave a magic wand over these people I reluctantly call people and cure them of their desires, we don’t have the power to do that. No amount of therapy in the world can change someone’s sexual tastes.
So in lieu of an ideal solution, finding ways to prevent pedophiles from seeking victims in the first place is the next best thing.
It’s not dissimilar to how when we set up centers for drug addicted people to get small doses of what they’re addicted to so that they can fight withdrawal symptoms, crimes and death rates go down. When you enact things like universal basic income and SNAP, people have less of a reason to rob banks and gas stations so we see less of them.
It’s not enough to punish people who do something wrong, we need to find out why they’re doing it and eliminate the underlying cause.
Pedo isn’t a sexual preference anymore than cannibal a dietary one…
You know what? Sure. Imagine I find ppl really taste, especially hands. But I never chew on one. I just think about it. Literally the same thing. You should be rewarded for restraint on these urges. If I’d get punished for thinking about munching on a thumb, I’d at least take a hand with me to jail. I’m going there anyway.
That’s basically how I feel. I’d much rather these kinds of people jack it to drawings and AI Generated images if the alternative is that they’re going to go after real chidlren.
At some point the fake images won’t do it for them and then they’d fix their attention to real kids. We don’t want to wait for that to happen.
It’s like using a drug with your threshold increasing each time you use, they’re will be a time that your old limit will have no effect on your satisfaction level.
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Is that proven or just bullshit speculation?
Seems like speculation, but personally I’d be amazed if it were completely incorrect.
If people who are attracted to children are constantly looking at CP, they are inevitably going to become more comfortable with it. Same with any other type of porn - do you think people who watch tons of torture porn dont become increasingly unaffected by it? It’s also the same for any other illegal or shocking content. I spent enough time on 4chan 10+ years ago to vouch for this personally.
I’m not saying that everyone who looks at these AI images will act on their desire, but some people will absolutely end up wanting more after having open access to pictures of naked children.
Honestly it’s a bit concerning how people are voting this down, why do we value the sexual gratification of pedos higher than the potential safety of children?
This is the War on Drugs argument all over again, except using porn instead of marijuana as a “gateway”.
You’re correct that there can be some crossover and some unstable people could have an addiction that gets out of control, but I don’t think there’s any proof that happens in high enough numbers.
Source: dude just trust me
Do you know how much porn there is of the My Little Pony characters? Tons
Do you know how much of an epidemic there is of cartoon watchers going out and fucking ponies? Somewhere between null and zilch… Maybe one or two extreme cases, but that’s around the same amount of people who watch Super Hero movies and try to jump off the roof in order to fly.
This is a slippery slope fallacy if I ever saw it.
Heck, if anything we’ve seen that restrictions on porn actually leads to increased instances of sexual assault, in the same way a crackdown on drugs just leads to more deaths from overdoses.
If letting some sicko have fake images of pretend children saves even one real child from being viciously exploited, I think it’s worth it.
It’s not ideal and yeah, it makes the skin of any sane person crawl… Ideally we should be out curing pedophiles of their sexual urges entirely, but since we don’t have a way to do that why let perfect be the enemy of good? I mean what other ideas do we have? Cause “To Catch A Predator” may have been good television, but even that had ethical concerns ending in lawsuits lost and suicides performed, and castrated everyone convicted isn’t exactly 8th Amendment friendly… and even then that prevents repeat offenses, not initial offenses. (Prevention > Cure)
Now all this aside, we do need to look at this on a case by case basis. If real children are being used to model for the AI or fake images are used as a form of blackmail (Think “Revenge Porn”, but way, way worse), then cuffs need to be slapped on people.
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And when it does, can’t do anything about it “While making sure this never happens again is a noble goal, let’s not politicize this tragedy.”
Or as they say over in Europe “Apparently the Americans say there’s no way to prevent that problem that literally doesn’t happen anywhere else in the world.”
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Jfc what’s with these pedo apologists. If someone were a cannibal, would it be totally fine to just give them human flesh removed from surgeries or dead people? Maybe let him pay people to eat them and drink their blood? AI images are trained on actual CP and CP anyway should not be normalized. If someone has ideation of violence then the last thing you do is feed those ideations. Would you think a suicidal person should watch simulated suicide? Why would watching simulated acts of depraved violence because you enjoy them somehow prevent you from committing that act yourself? If you enjoy something that much then you are thinking about doing it yourself.
Actually the analogy here would be to give “wannabe cannibals” synthetic meat/stuff that tastes like human meat/stuff
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As mentioned on another one of your comments, I am having a hard time finding the science you reference.
This isn’t about addiction, it’s about sexuality. And you can’t just curb your whole sexuality away. These people have a disorder that makes them sexually attracted to children. At this point there is no harm done yet. They just are doomed to live a very unfulfilling life, because the people with whom they want to engage in sexual practices can’t give their consent, which is morally and legally required, no question about that. And most of them don’t give in to these urges and seek the help they need.
But still, you can’t just meditate your whole sexuality away. I don’t want to assume, but I bet you also masturbate or pleasure yourself in one way or another, I know I do. And when I was young, fantasy was all I needed, but then I saw my first nude and watched my first porno and it progressed from there, and I’m sure fantasy won’t be enough for these people as well. So when they get to the stage where they want to consume media, I prefer it to be AI created images or some drawn hentai of a naked young girl or whatever, and not real abused children.
What do you think those AIs models are trained on?
I dont beleive its a sickness. Humans vary in innumerable ways and defining natural variations as sickness is a social decision, not medical. If you look at the DSM you will find that that social problems are sometimes given as a reason for defining something as illness. This is just the medicalisation of everything.
Even if you grant that its a sicknesd, how does it follow that sickness should therefore be treated by AI? I see no argument or logic here. Do you think harm would be done if the paedophile knows the child? If the child finds out they are the object of rape fantasies? If you find you are married to a person who gets off on raping children? Your children?
Do you allow for disgust and horror at sadistic desires or are we ‘not allowed to kink shame’.Because eventually looking at images might not be enough
Edit: Do we want to be normalising this? It’s disturbing how there’s people defending it.
Bro I’ve watched a lot of regular porn and never once have I gone out and thought “why yes I’d sure like to rape that person”
But you will at least have an outlet if you get yourself a partner or hire an escort. There’s the prospect of sex in real life. You’re not forever limited to porn.
By that logic almost everyone in Hollywood should be in prison for depicting violence, murder, rape etc in movies/shows etc. This argument was put to rest back in the '90s.
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While I don’t disagree with the initial premise, image AI requires training images.
I suppose technically you could use hyper-realistic CGI CSAM, and then it could potentially be a “victimless” crime. But the chances of an AI being trained solely on CGI are basically non-existent. Photorealistic CGI is tough and takes a lot of time and skill to create from scratch. There are people whose entire careers are built upon photorealism, and their services aren’t cheap. And you’d probably need a team of artists (not just one artist, because the AI will inevitably end up learning whatever their “style” is and nothing more,) who are both capable and willing to create said images. The chances of all of those pieces falling into place are damned near 0.
Maybe you could supplement the CGI with young-looking pornstar material? There are plenty of pornstars whose entire schtick is looking young. But they definitely don’t look like children because the proportions are obviously all wrong; Children have larger heads compared to their bodies, for example. That’s not something that an adult actress can emulate simply by being flat chested. So these supplemental images could just as easily end up polluting (for lack of a better word) your AI’s training, because it would just learn to spit out images of flat chested adult women.
Generative Ai is perfectly capable of combining concepts. Teach it how do today do photorealistic underage and photorealistic porn and or can combine them together to make csam without ever being trained on actual csam
Just stop being attracted to kids you sicko
That’s like telling gay dudes to stop liking dick. It’s brain chemistry and neural circuits, you can’t exactly just snap your fingers and be rid of the problem. Humans are complex creatures.
Obligatory “are you comparing pedophiles to LGBTQ?”
Yes, obviously. I’m not equating them, but human sexuality is a deep and multifaceted subject. We can’t just make statements like “just stop enjoying this”, that’s not how humans work and I think we all know that.
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Consider this: killing people bad.
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Considering every other aspect of this is being argued in this thread to exhaustion, I just want to say it’s wild they caught him since it says he didn’t distribute it.
He probably just used a cloud service that wasn’t private.
The AI was harmed. We need to protect the AI.
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(Apologies if I use the wrong terminology here, I’m not an AI expert, just have a fact to share)
The really fucked part is that at least google has scraped a whole lot of CSAM as well as things like ISIS execution bids etc and they have all this stuff stored and use it to do things like train the algorithms for AIs. They refuse to delete this material as they claim that they just find the stuff and aren’t responsible for what it is.
Getting an AI image generator to produce CSAM means it knows what to show. So why is the individual in jail and not the tech bros?
That’s a fundamental misunderstanding of how diffusion models work. These models extract concepts and can effortlessly combine them to new images.
If it learns woman + crown = queen
and queen - woman + man = king
it is able to combine any such concept together
As Stability has noted. any model that has the concept of naked and the concept of child in it can be used like this. They tried to remove naked for Stable Diffusion 2 and nobody used it.
Nobody trained these models on CSAM and the problem is a dilemma in the same way a knife is a dilemma. We all know a malicious person can use a knife for murder, including of children Yet society has decided that knives sufficient other uses that we still allow their sale pretty much everywhere.
This can be used by pedophiles is used as an argument to ban cryptography… I wonder if someone will apply that to the generative AI.
Depends how profitable it is.
If it can replace workers no, if it threatens the big players like Disney yes.
Here you go bud, no misunderstanding at all. The image generators are trained on CSAM, as I said.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/ap-study-developers-thorn-canada-b2467386.html
Editing this reply to say that I was in fact right and I did not have any fundamental misunderstanding of anything. And the database in question here is called LAIOn and contains 6 billions images scraped from the web, including CSAM images.
Thanks for that. As I said, I’m not big into how AI works, so not surprised I got that wrong. The databases of everything that has come across the clear web are still there though and are available for use by people with access.
What are you referring to by “the database of everything that has come across the clear web”?
NSA servers? jkjk, kinda
I think they mean Google’s web-crawler index, but I don’t think that the index works that way… well, on the other hand, they do cache some stuff.
See this new article. The image database they looked into is called LAIOn. There are others though of course. I don’t mean google crawlers, I mean image databases for training image generators.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/ap-study-developers-thorn-canada-b2467386.html
Pedos gonna pedo…
Excellent work, no notes.
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ITT - Lemmy supports the pedos
Can’t have any nuanced discussion here! Glad to see people such as yourself engaging in reductionism and shutting down thinking, because all interactions online have to be boiled down to five words TL;DR pithy sound bites.
Leave the shit on Twitter, we can do better here.
I actually typed out a more lengthy response to someone here already, read more responses/viewed the vote counts, and then wrote this top level comment pointing out how backwards this community’s views are. No one is directly supporting assaulting children, but as I wrote elsewhere: “why do we value the sexual gratification of pedos higher than the potential safety of children?”
Who the heck is proposing we value that? Everyone is saying we value the safety of real children which may entail keeping artificial CP legal.
Also it’s a victimless crime so punishments dealt out are criticized heavily, and for good reason.
Isn’t the point that Noone was harmed and that you shouldn’t get in prison for stuff that harmed nobody. I mean ew its disgusting but not worth jailing someone for it…
Comments in this thread makes me laugh especially the ‘its not pedophila’ parts LOOOOOOOOOOOL
Yeah, I thought he whole MAP bullshit died out, but apparently it’s alive and well on lemmy. It’s pretry sad.
