He asked for it.
The car full of hammer and sickles in the background though 😂😂 that’s metaphorical gold
How’d you get a picture of me? 🧐
Oh hey this is how i inform people about juche
the mouth really makes it
Has anyone in the communism community ever actually lived under a communist regime? I have and that shit was not good. No matter how nice communism sounds on paper it depends on humans sharing and not being selfish and power hungry, which is a fantasy. Even in a communist society, you’ll have those who will get more than others and will be more “equal”
it depends on humans sharing and not being selfish and power hungry, which is a fantasy.
What about Communism depends on this, structurally? How, in any way, does Capitalism do better?
Even in a communist society, you’ll have those who will get more than others and will be more “equal”
Where does Marx say that Communism is about equality?
It’s funny because I’m pretty sure you haven’t lived in a communist country either. So you’re arguing that lack of personal experience invalidates all arguments in favour of communism, but your lack of personal experience living in a communist country somehow doesn’t invalidate your arguments against communism. Yup, perfectly consistent.
You’re weird. You’re one of those weirdos people are talking about I think, going around questioning people’s nationalities and race
They want to know what you’re talking about to determine whether you’re full of shit. You’re weird.
Where and when?
Let’s make it more interesting. Name a place where communism has taken hold and has worked as intended without a ruling class and without resorting to human rights violations of their citizens
Why don’t you just say where and when you lived under a communist regime?
Why are you so insistent I doxx myself to you? For a person defending communism you sure do seem to want to throw me in a dungeon for wrong think
I’m not the one who claimed to have lived under a communist regime. You did.
Are you still living under a communist regime?
Would simply stating where and when you live under a communist regime put you in danger?
If so then why did you volunteer that information on a public Internet forum?
The downvotes say it all. No one in favour of it here seems able to have an honest discussion.
If you are genuinely unable to see that any political system, no matter how great in theory, doesn’t translate that simply into reality because of human behaviour, then you’ve got some reading and thinking to do.
The attitude towards communism here comes across like a cult. Present facts or a reasonable point of discussion, you get shouted down/strawmanned, othered, etc.
Ironically, the very behaviour that stops things like communism working in reality.
China is the most democratic country on Earth, it has done nearly all of the poverty elimination that has occurred on this planet in the last fifty years, it has proven its ability time and time again to solve problems that vex capitalist regimes in humane and effective ways, it has proven to be resilient if not totally immune to the cyclical market shocks that every capitalist regime on the planet is regularly victim to, it has closed the technological gap and is now pulling ahead of the capitalist world in nearly every sector, its citizens are happier than the citizens of any other country and have the highest faith in their government institutions out of any other country…
I could go on. But please tell me about TiAnAnMeN sQuArE and the UyGhUr GeNoCiDe like I haven’t heard those weak ass-arguments a million times.
China is also extremely capitalist, but yeah it’s really easy to pretend how great it is there when you’re so willing to completely ignore all the reasons it’s not
China is not “extremely” capitalist; its capitalism is intentionally limited. To paraphrase Grover Norquist, the Chinese government keeps capitalism to the size where it can drag it into the bathroom and drown it in the bathtub. It may appear massive & dominant to you, because 1) you see almost nothing but products by Chinese capitalist companies and 2) you’re not accounting for the full scope and size of China’s population and their production and consumption.
Why did you bring up China? Wasn’t involved in the conversation, doesn’t qualify as a communist nation, hasn’t claimed to be for a while actually.
Sure China has done some impressive things but those two “weak-ass” arguments you brought up are neither weak nor small. China is an authoritarian state that abuses its people. You could unfortunately say that about many counties though.
*crickets chirping*
Everybody Sucks Here
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😂 You know who defines the metrics for democracy indexes? Liberals who wouldn’t know democracy if it bit them in the ass. People who believe in bourgeois democracy.
Economist Intelligence Unit is by venerable rag of the bourgeoisie, The Economist. Karl Marx himself called it, “the tribune of the aristocracy of finance.”
The US score is 7.8, even though it is not a democracy and never was.
Most in China Call Their Nation A Democracy, Most in U.S. Say America Isn’t
the democracy index
a fake statistic that elevates bourgeois democracies and denigrates any country where the people have power.
Yeah countries which the US has couped in my parent’s lifetimes are more democratic than Cuba, where residents sometimes complain that the government consults them too much and which regularly has referendums over measures refined up from local committees everywhere until they have a measure to vote on. (See: family code)
A revolution from the top was always going to be bad. I think people in this forum are hoping for a revolution from the bottom.
What do you mean by a “revolution from the top?”
The BV’s were initially grass roots, along with other communists in Russia at the time, but after Lenin got control the policies all came from above with little to no input from the workers below, and the BV’s became the defacto only party.
That stands in direct contrast to the actual structure of the USSR, and a misunderstanding of Democratic Centralism. The Soviets were the organizational organ of the USSR, as shown here:
Secondly, being a single party does not mean democratization lowers. Parlimentarianism obscures the material impact of a Worker’s voice. A single party system can be bad, such as in Nazi Germany, where there was little to no actual democracy. A single party system can be good, such as in the USSR.
As per your previous statement that “most of us want bottom-up revolutions,” that’s correct, but “most of us” do not agree that the October Revolution was a “top-down” revolution.
I recommend reading the following texts, if you have not done so already:
Fair enough, carry on sir.
If a revolution from the bottom happens, there will still be new leaders appointed from those at the bottom. And will soon become less like the rest of us, and will become just like the old Masters
What if we keep replacing the leaders with new people from the bottom?
I think the only way it works is if you start chopping off hands and shit as punishment for corruption and that’s a whole can of worms, and there will still be certain people immune
If everything is shared while living a communist way of life, that would include political power. This makes communism a direct democracy.
Does that sound like the country you’re thinking of?
Which communist country, and when? It’s hard to imagine anyone in any former communist country who was old enough to remember communism, and lived through the 90s, could think communism was worse.
No matter how nice communism sounds on paper it depends on humans sharing and not being selfish and power hungry
Those problems are a million times worse in capitalism where each capitalist is a dictator responsible only to themselves and each politician is responsible only to their capitalist donors.
"Even when communism is not achieved, communism will not be achieved.’ is probably the most common and basic declaration from people have yet to learn anything about it.
Communism cannot be achieved. It sounds nice but humans suck.
Reminds me of Star Trek. Great vision of the future, but it’ll never happen cause HUMANS SUCK
views this on a smartphone encapsulating about a dozen concepts inspired and portrayed in Star Trek.
Humans suck… for now.
Of course they haven’t, and while I’m happy to be proved wrong, I’m sure they’re all enjoying the benefits of living in a democratic country while cosplaying communists.
Do you think your bourgeois democracy is actually democratic? If you are for democracy you’d be a socialist.
Philosophical question: Can socialism and capitalism coexist?
Purely hypothetical.
No, capitalism vs socialism is; who owns the means of production, the capitalist class or the working class?
I haven’t stated my position. Yes, I think our democratic processes could be better in many countries.
I also understand the reality that there is no simple 'one system" solution that is just going to miraculously fix everything.
Yes, I think our democratic processes could be better in many countries.
No, we do not have democracy. We have bourgeois democracy that cannot be reformed into democracy.
What is bourgeois democracy?: https://www.leftvoice.org/bourgeois-democracy-what-do-marxists-mean-by-that-term/
If you are skeptical of the inability to reform bourgeois democracy I would do some reading on Allende and Chile.
The fact that people are downvoting you and saying no no you didn’t actually live through that is fucking crazy
I summed it up in my response to them, but essentially they have a confused idea of what Communism even means. It’s perfectly possible for them to have grown up in a Communist nation, but 2 points stick out as confused:
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They believe Communism structurally depends on “good people not being selfish” without elaborating, and
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They believe Communism to be about some vague “equality,” despite Marx arguing against said very notion.
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It isn’t crazy if you know the first goddamned thing about what he’s talking about. Because then you’d know he doesn’t.
Agreed, but I am sad that they don’t choose to share any of those personal experiences that they claim are vital for understanding communism.
Even if communist revolutions tend to fail for the same reasons most revolutions fail (a need for temporary authoritarian rule followed by fumbling the succession) anything that can help understand how and why something failed is useful.
a need for temporary authoritarian rule
Why?
For a revolution to succeed you need the power to remove any people in power that oppose you, doesn’t get more authoritarian than that.
authoritarian rule
This is why
authoritarianism is infinitely preferable to authoritarianism + communism + famine + repression of speech etc etc
Authoritarian central planning sucks…
Workers having shares in companies and or the means of production doesn’t.
Authoritarian central planning sucks…
You hate it because it defeated the nazis or…?
No, I dislike all Authoritarian regimes. I dislike single party systems.
We’re discussing systems of the past of course, not possible variations or was a new Socialism moght structure its self.
But the problem is that Capitalism isn’t going down without a fight, and if there’s a fight there will likely be an Authoritarian one party system after, that performs a period of white/red terror, that’s difficult to avoid.
It’s a hard problem for revolutionary forms of Socialism.
No, I dislike all Authoritarian regimes. I dislike single party systems.
Living in WW2 Belarus would cure you from that centrist hyperidealist nonsense. Or maybe not, there would be statistically 1/3 chance nazis would murder you.
an Authoritarian one party system after, that performs a period of white/red terror
The one party system is going to perform white and red terrors?
There’s always more than one side in a revolution, and there’s always massacres.
Auth left and Auth right have had all of human history and they’ve blown it. Don’t you think it’s time for someone else to give it a go?
The political compass turned you into a fucking moron, dude.
The soviet economy was insane(ly good)!
https://youtu.be/Hcl3R-yARX8?si=Z2Us5pkG9a7FBPUw
Well sourced easily digestible video on it.
Lots of Authoritarian one party economies are, Hitler’s, China’s, Ghengis Khan’s, Ancient Rome.
You can really make leaps and bounds with forced labour and a Stalinist regime… But I don’t want to live under such a system, nor would I automatically trust how it’s applied.
Here’s some photos of some gulag laborers digging the White Sea to Baltic canal for some extra bread and meat rations: https://allthatsinteresting.com/white-sea-baltic-canal
Insanely “good” economies are often created from poverty, serfdom, slavery, and forced labour. That’s not how I’d define a “good” economy though.
Lots of Authoritarian one party economies are, Hitler’s, China’s, Ghengis Khan’s, Ancient Rome.
Lol
God I wish
reeducation camps were a thingPolitical prisoners are a thing.
Gulags were a thing, labor camps have been a thing, vocational education and training centers, have been a thing, north koreas camps have been a thing, siberian labor camps have been a thing, pol pots torture camps have been a thing.
Authoritarian one party systems tend to have political prisoners, and institutions, camps, or prisons where they’re dealt with.
These are things the proletariat and lumpenproletariat (and other classes) get subjected too for political reasons, I’m saying I don’t want that happening. That it’s a bad thing.
You aren’t saying anything except bringing up scary terms you heard. Conspiracies are a thing. War profiteers are a thing. El Chupacabra is a thing.
You’re just talking shit without any specific accusations. Just vibes.
You’re free to look up these various systems of political punishment. Just answering 'theyre conspiracy theories ’ isn’t a convincing argument.
You have to win people to your cause if you want your systems to win.
Weird how the socialist command economies lead to a massive increase in literacy, life expectancy, women’s rights, access to education, doctors per person, decreased infant and maternal mortality, I could go on.
Almost like there is a difference between a capitalist command economy like the nazis did and a socialist command economy. Wonder what the difference between those three word phrases are, hmmmmm 🤔🤔🤔
Just to note; Capitalism also has this problem of paying workers the minimum in order to transfer wealth to profit/owners.
Fun Fact: Communism is actually an attainable goal within our lifetimes, but people would actually have to be open to confronting their biases against it (including hate for all its supporters)
If there are communists who think communism can be attained in our lifetimes, I don’t know them. We’re not going to sell people a fantasy, some overnight utopia. Some places are now socialist, and more may become so in our lifetimes. But, as socialist states themselves will tell you, communism has not yet been attained anywhere.
Actually disagree, at least not higher-stage Communism. Higher stage communism requires pretty much all living generations on Earth to have never known Capitalism, and be so used to living within Socialism that the statist apparatus makes itself redundant and whithers away. This becomes self-perpetuating and stable.
Lower stage communism? Absolutely.
It isn’t simply a matter of “confronting internal biases,” just like you would not place a random modern worker into feudalism and expect them to be capable of tending the fields, producing for subsistence plus surplus to their local feudal lord, and producing all manner of household goods such as clothing, fences, and food, so too can you not thrust the modern proletariat into a higher stage of production without working through the transitional status of Socialism.
Communism is not attainable in our lifetimes as it will require decades upon decades of economic and social development. But we can take the first steps by seizing control of the state from capital and oppressing the actions of capitalists themselves. In other words, by creating socialist (or proto-socialist) states.
I want to live in the commune with nuclear arms. To many shitters in the world as it is.
As a commi, I can’t stand this kind of people… Like, is important and (sometimes even fun) to talk about this, but there is a lot more to life…
Did you miss the first frame, bud?
Did you miss every other frame, pal?
The first frame is implying that they never really talked before someone pointed out that ‘they’re so quiet’.
At which point they terrorise the other guy and won’t shut up.
Right, that’s the whole joke.
So? I really don’t get your point, maybe I misunderstood the meme?
Your comment seemed to suggest that you ‘can’t stand the kind of people’ who regularly never chime in with their opinion but when confronted about their silence open up a lot more; which seemed a bit odd to me so I just assumed you meant communists who are constantly vocal about their politics. But the first frame of the comic establishes that this person had never been vocal about anything much at all prior.
Which is why I asked if you had missed or misread the first frame. Otherwise it’s just kind of weird to hate on the quiet folks.
Unless I’m misreading this comic.
Right, I get you now.
My comment was directed to people who are constanly talking about the same topic and do no speak about anything else and I specially have some extra annoyace for people doing that with politics. Even if I confront you with “You’re so quiet” and then you let it out, it will still be annoyed, no matter if I asked first or not. Like, me inviting you to open is very different than me signing up for a unending hangout-tracendent only-about-communism discussion…
The comic is missing the frames with the other guy trying to change the topic and the other person perpetually stearing the conversation back to the same topic, which more often than not, I will entail some diaregard for the other party(s) in the convo.
A: Man, I broke my leg B: aw shit, that must suck, right?
because you can’t do the things you likeI mean braking your leg in this shitty system, I wish we could have a system…A: Yo, look, I bought this really cool thing that I have been wanted for years! B:
Cool! what does it do?ah… It was probably made by some slave in a sweatshop, you know? If we were in communinsm those would probably be made by some happy people instead!(Dumb examples, I know, but Im no writer.)
I do admit, that me starting my comment with “As a commie” do makes my comment kinda obtuse and nonsense…
I stand by it tho. This kind of person is just very annoying to me, independent of the topic. Im quite vocal about my political views, but there’s too much in my life to only talk about the one belive I have.
I agree, telling people they are quiet is silly. The first guy also should’ve been talking about communism from the beginning.
At heart I’m a commi. The fantasy is stronger than the reality though.
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