• prettybunnys@sh.itjust.works
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          5 months ago

          I’m actually shocked the “limited small govt” crowd isn’t anti death penalty given it provides a legal avenue for state sanctioned murder.

          Feels like they’d be against that sort of thing.

          • aidan@lemmy.world
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            5 months ago

            I’m actually shocked the “limited small govt” crowd isn’t anti death penalty

            trust me a lot of them are

        • yeahiknow3@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          5 months ago

          Idk what’s the upside of killing rabid dogs? Most dogs are better than most humans, so how does the math work out there?

      • proudblond@lemmy.world
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        5 months ago

        I would not say there is specifically an upside to keeping a serial killer alive, but there are many downsides to the death penalty both ethically and in practice, not the least of which is the chance that you would execute an innocent person. For those of us who are anti-death penalty, that is usually where we’re coming from.

        • yeahiknow3@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          5 months ago

          I’m against the death penalty, and I know the best argument against it, something nobody in this thread has even approximately articulated.

          Currently, as far as I know, there is only one strong argument against the death penalty, and it has to do with moral proscriptions against treating the death of a person as a spectacle, which I notice nobody mentioned.

          • Burstar@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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            5 months ago

            it isn’t a deterrent,

            It is cheaper to let them rot in prison for life,

            nobody wants to make the drugs involved for the ‘humane way’ so it is really difficult to obtain enough where it is used,

            it is fundamentally inhumane to kill someone that knows it’s coming (mental torture),

            risk of executing an innocent, and as already stated

            it is hypocritical to kill someone for killing.

            • yeahiknow3@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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              5 months ago

              it is fundamentally inhumane to kill someone that knows it’s coming (mental torture)

              That killing serial killers causes them harm isn’t a particularly compelling point, since we disagree over whether harming them is, in fact, good.

              risk of executing an innocent

              This is a good point and one I would explore further. However, it leaves open exceptions where the evidence is overwhelming.

              it is hypocritical to kill someone for killing

              Killing isn’t always bad. Killing innocent creatures is bad. Killing serial killers is tantamount to putting down rabid animals.

                • yeahiknow3@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                  5 months ago

                  No, I am genuinely against the death penalty.

                  It’s important not to conflate moral facts with practical policy. Most of your arguments focus on how people should be treated, whereas the relevant question is how governments should behave and why. These are very different things.

                  Regardless of what people deserve, no government should go around killing its own citizens. That is because killing as a punishment makes a spectacle of death. It is profoundly unhealthy for any civil society to revel in death. That’s the answer. It has nothing to do with what serial killers deserve. They do not matter.

              • aidan@lemmy.world
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                5 months ago

                This is a good point and one I would explore further. However, it leaves open exceptions where the evidence is overwhelming.

                And you trust the state to make that decision? Or a jury?

              • AA5B@lemmy.world
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                5 months ago

                Killing serial killers is tantamount to putting down rabid animals.

                A serial killer can be removed from society and prevented from having an opportunity to kill. “Putting him down” is just you stooping to his level out of misguided self-righteousness

                A rabid animal is suffering from the final hours of a horrible communicable disease that is 100% fatal. It’s in horrible pain, out of its mind, and you are doing a mercy to end its misery

                • yeahiknow3@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                  5 months ago

                  Listen, if you want to keep a psychopath alive in your basement for some unknown reason, well, as long as he doesn’t get out and maul anyone that’s fine by me. But you’re insane if you think normal people should spend their hard-earned money contributing to that exercise in immiseration.

          • proudblond@lemmy.world
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            5 months ago

            I don’t want someone to kill me; therefore I believe it is also not okay for me to kill someone else. It’s just the golden rule. I am not a student of ethics or philosophy but it seems pretty straightforward to me.

            • yeahiknow3@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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              5 months ago

              In the event that I were guilty of causing great harm to innocent people, then I should be killed. Not in revenge, but as a matter of course, given that my life would no longer be worth living.

              This is the golden rule in action, which is about how you would want to be treated in similar circumstances.

          • aidan@lemmy.world
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            5 months ago

            Currently, as far as I know, there is only one strong argument against the death penalty, and it has to do with moral proscriptions against treating the death of a person as a spectacle, which I notice nobody mentioned.

            Nah I think not killing innocent people is a pretty strong argument, death being a spectacle doesn’t really matter to me- someone killing someone is much worse than the part where they post it on LiveLeak

            • yeahiknow3@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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              5 months ago

              If you’re so against killing innocents, I assume you’re vegan. Or… is your morality as twisted and inconsistent as I suspect?

                • yeahiknow3@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                  5 months ago

                  So your morality is arbitrary, and at least we can both agree that the chicken has more reason to live than you do.

                  • aidan@lemmy.world
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                    5 months ago

                    So your morality is arbitrary

                    Yours isn’t? Where does it come from?

                    both agree that the chicken has more reason to live than you do.

                    You’re clearly not trolling

      • Flying Squid@lemmy.world
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        5 months ago

        Because that makes the state a serial killer. In fact, the state has murdered far more people than even the most prolific serial killer.

        Whether or not they are innocent is often an afterthought. A way too late afterthought.

        • aidan@lemmy.world
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          5 months ago

          Yet being suspicious of the state makes you a radical or a narcissist

      • AA5B@lemmy.world
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        5 months ago
        1. Why stoop to their level? We’re claiming to be better than a killer
        2. No take backs. One mistake is too many mistakes
        3. It’s actually cheaper to keep them alive
        • yeahiknow3@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          5 months ago

          If you hate killing so much, you must be vegan, right? Or do you kill some non-human animals but not other non-human animals?

              • aidan@lemmy.world
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                5 months ago

                What? I care about human lives, I don’t really care about the lives of other animals

                • yeahiknow3@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                  5 months ago

                  Since human beings are also just animals, I assume you have some non-arbitrary reason for favoring one species over another?

                  Keep in mind that speciation is technically arbitrary, and that we can just as easily decide that you and I are not the same species. Go ahead, explain to me why I’m entitled to farm and eat you. I can’t wait to hear this.