So in the whole anti-natalism/pro-natalism conversation (which I’m mostly agnostic/undecided on, currently), my friend who is a pro-natalist, argued that the success/stability of our world economy is dependent on procreating more children each year than the previous year, so that we not only replace the numbers of the people who existed from the previous generation (and some, to account for the statistical likelihood that many won’t have children or will be sterile or die young etc), but also ensure that the population keeps growing in order to produce more and more human labor to “pay back the debts” of previous generations, because all money is borrowed from somewhere else… this is all very murky to me and I wish someone could explain it better.
She is also of the view that this will inevitably lead to population collapse/societal/civilisation collapse because we live on a finite Earth with finite resources that can’t keep sustaining more humans & human consumption (and are nearing critical environmental crises), but that there isn’t any other option than to keep producing more children because a declining population wouldn’t be able to support itself economically either. Basically the idea seems to be that economically & societally we’re on a collision course for self-destruction but the only thing we can do is keep going and making increasingly more of ourselves to keep it running (however that as individuals, we should be plant-based & minimalist to reduce our impact to the environment, non-human animals and humans for as long as possible). And she is worried about the fact that fertility rates are falling & slated to reach a population peak followed by a decline in the relatively near future.
As I said I’m not sure how I feel about this view but at first glance I think that the effect of having fewer children in providing relief upon the environment and helping safeguard our future is more important than preserving the economy because destroying the actual planet and life itself seems worse than economic downturns/collapses, but I really don’t know enough about economics to say for certain.
My view on it is:
The world turned before we existed, it will keep turning long after we’re gone.
The economy is manmade. It was modelled for humans by humans, and if we have to change how it works for it to survive, we will always find some bullshit new rule to append to the rest.
Making kids to sustain an economy is just a pyramid scheme. Don’t make kids other than because you want them and you want to love them otherwise you’re just scamming them.
That’s an easy one - no. You can look back to various periods during middle ages Europe for examples. An even stronger one would be China from about 400 CE-800 CE
Of course, those weren’t capitalist economies - but they were economies. Capitalism’s instability is what requires constant growth to maintain. The better (and harder) questions would be what to transition to that avoids the issues of feudalism and how to transition with a minimum of societal upheaval (violence and death).
more and more human labor to “pay back the debts” of previous generations
There is no law of economics stating that a generation of people has to consume more than it produces.
To preface I think reproduction is a very personal choice and right that we shouldn’t force on or take away from anyone ever.
But let me ask you this: the planet we live on is finite. It’s not getting bigger and its resources aren’t getting more. Is infinite growth of population (or anything else, for that matter) possible here? Or will this system eventually collapse?
But to add: the average human is consuming waaaaay less than their fair share of resources. Even the average middle class westerner probably is, and they’re already consuming a whole lot more than average. The planet and environment could sustain a lot more people more comfortably if there weren’t a few obscenely excessive consumers, ie the richest of the rich. That’s probably a better fix than shaming the average Joe for wanting to have kids.
There are also many things we consume only because marketing makes us want them even though we have no real need for them. And many jobs producing completely useless things. Not to mention waste through planned obsolescence, DRM, patents and similar mechanisms that artificially reduce the usefulness of goods below its natural level. We could easily produce everything we need with a fraction of the current work force.
No.
Is your friend a Cold-War era Romanian dictator?
We don’t need infinite population growth to support the economy but eventually we are going to hit a point where we have to support more retired people than workers. At that point the economy will slow down as there is less demand because people will lose their jobs because of the less demand. People will also be spending more of their time and incomes taking care of their older relatives.
Our current Ponzi scheme, robbing Peter to pay Paul, method of funding social security will break down at that point and we will have to decide whether we send mom and dad and grandpa and grandma to the poor house, increase taxes on the workers who still have their jobs, or redistribute wealth from the 1%.
People won’t vote for the first 2, so we might actually get socialism at that point but it will hurt a lot on the way there.
Japan’s population has been in decline since about 2005 and they haven’t exploded in a fireball yet.
I think neo nataliam started as a very extreme view. I didn’t think it was quite as sarcastic as A Modest Proposal, but it has the same vibe to me. I’d be suspicious of anyone talking it seriously at face value. Maybe they aren’t being malicious, but they’re at least unsophisticated.
Not that I am a huge fan of him in general but you should watch this. Also there is no debt that’s not imaginary. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTznEIZRkLg&t=28 It is not strange that relatively rich people have fewer child than poor people. Rich people don’t need a buffer for kids dying and being providers at your old age. The answer to population growth is obvious and anyone arguin anything else is speaking in their own interest. Equality in lifestandard, money and life.
No, you cannot keep the population infinitely growing just to maintain the pyramid the economy is built on. I think greed clouds our vision, it would and will be possible with automation and AI to have a rich and technologically evolving economy with fewer people, the problem is people seem to feel they need to exploit other people or it’s not a reasonable economy.
I’m not sure what we’re referring to when we say pay back the debts, but as far as a societal collapse due to constant population growth - is that not just the basis of nature? If resources become scarce, population will decline since you can’t provide for everyone’s needs at that point. If resources are plenty, population can grow. I don’t see how a decline in population leads to societal collapse. Some countries are facing declining populations now, for other reasons, and they’re not collapsing. It’s a potential problem that would need to be faced, but collapse seems extreme to me.
To my current understanding (especially of whatever economy we speak of), that depends on if there’s hyperinflation (have less children?), hypershrinkflation or whatever it’s called (pump out those wee babs?), or hyperstagflation (akin to the first thing?). In a world where the ratio between people and money is equal to having less, I never understood why there is no “human standard/factor” in the “gold standard” sense, though then again these are the same people who insist on unchecked social incentive.
