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cross-posted from: https://lemmy.ml/post/14006090
New UN report outlines the ‘Anatomy of a Genocide’ in Gaza
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At this point just drop the weasel words and say it plain. It is a genocide by all accounts. Its not going to change anything, but call it like it is already.
I disagree.
On what grounds?
On grounds of being a Zionist. Just a guess.
Lots of reasons but mainly that the high civilian death toll is easily explained by Hamas’s strategy of using human shields and Hamas’s criminal leadership decisions.
The most shocking and inflammatory “reports” are usually unverified and usually come from incredible or incompetent sources, and that this is readily apparent in virtually every article about the war if you can slow your emotions down and actually evaluate the reported facts. Article from credible journalists usually even say “these reports could not be independently verified.”
I also find the IDF to be generally credible, usually victims of lies and exaggeration, whereas I find Hamas to have zero credibility whatsoever. I also think it’s completely justified to continue bombing military targets until every member of Hamas is dead, and that if civilians in the area of a military target have been reasonably warned to evacuate, that’s all that morality or international law requires before launching a strike, especially in light of Hamas’s strategy of hiding among willing civilians while also failing to wear uniforms.
Also the death tolls are going down month over month, and the fact that only 30,000 people are dead in in such a densely populated area of 2.3m people, is a testament to the fact that the warnings mostly work, that the evacuations mostly worked, and that the targeting is mostly very precise. Otherwise, the death toll would be much higher.
I also view the conflict almost entirely in terms of the posture between Israel and Iran and trying to avoid a broader war that could kill 100,000,000 people, perhaps more. Like what are we talking about here? Human life, human rights? Try on 30,000,000 dead and see how sad that makes everyone.
Also, I don’t see how giving Hamas a country advances the cause of human rights? Extreme religious autocracies have never once secured human rights for anyone. In fact if you go to Gaza and start talking about securing human rights for people you might get murdered for being an infidel.
Finally, the handful of legit war crimes committed by Israelis don’t color the entire war for me. Israel actually has a history of prosecuting war criminals, unlike in Gaza where war criminals get a prize from Daddy Hamas.
So these are your grounds for saying that it isn’t a genocide?
- Hamas uses human shields.
- news reports from a war zone cannot be independently verified
- the IDF is credible; Hamas is not
- it is ok to kill civilians provided they were warned to move, because this is “all international law requires” before launching a strike.
- the rate of new deaths is decreasing
- 30,000 (mainly innocents, by any estimate) dead is actually quite low. So warnings work and targeting is precise
- if there was a war with Iran it would be worse
- Hamas bad
But how does this relate to the genocide convention? Are you saying there is no intent?
We can talk about specific points after but I want to understand how this all connects
You’re close, more or less, to how I see it but I think you know you’re being a bit cheeky. My views on this are too complex to put into bullet point as you’ve done, there’s too much nuance. It’s hard to even talk about in paragraphs, let alone bullet points. There’s a reason peace in the middle east has been so elusive and so polarizing; it comes down to very personal beliefs.
Targeting civilians is absolutely not okay. Targeting military assets after warning nearby civilians is absolutely fine, as far as prosecuting a war goes. It’s not that I’m just okay with such calamity, I’m just not surprised to see five figures death tolls of civilians when Hamas forces, tricks, or convinces Gazans to literally stand underneath bombs, so I don’t blame Israel for those excess deaths. They are clearly the result of Hamas’s strategy; and it’s their strategy that is the war crime, their strategy of literally using entire cities as human shields, their strategy of not wearing uniforms, their strategy of operating out of hospitals and schools, are the crime against humanity.
In law it’s called transferred intent. If you commit an armed bank robbery and a responding police officer shoots at you but hits and kills a family crossing the street, you are charged for their deaths since their deaths were within the range of probable consequences of committing armed robbery, and among the range of foreseeable risks that make the conduct illegal in the first place.
News reports can be verified, just not fast enough for either the 24-hour outrage news cycle or the coalition of propogandists who are trying to mobilize extremists against the western world order, you know, all these pan Islamists chanting “death to America and death to Israel,” as well as all these dark moneied MAGA loyalists in America trying to mobilize liberals against Joe Biden. I think the public got lied to in the early days of the war and every further lie they see just confirms their initial reaction.
So unfortunately in America the coverage of this war has been utterly one sided and people have a perception of it that doesn’t match reality. Again, monthly casualties have decreased every month since the start of the war. The famine that has been imminent for four months hanot happened. Shroedingers Gaza, somehow simultaneously starving with no aid and also literally has people dying because aid is failing on them from the sky.
Then, to add to that misperception, there are the bona fide war crimes that some Israeli soldiers obviously do commit, which as noted in the ICJ opinion, Israel has a credible record of prosecuting when it can. Events such as the flour massacre or this recent food aid workers’ vehicle.
The legit atrocities get mixed in with the unbelievable rage bait about IDF soldiers just doing sniper rifle turkey shoots of little kids, just scooping up women and kids and torturing them, based on third and fourth hand accounts of “reports” of literal Hamas accomplices, and they always have the same report about how none of the bombs ever hit any Hamas fighters, and never hit any tunnels and there were no warnings, only women, children, orphans, and puppies.
Then there is the echo chamber of media where we hear the same few quotes, day in, day out, such as, “entire families wiped out” and “famine is imminent.” Since November 3, 2023, famine has been imminent, at least according to an NGO in a fundraising press release. Since October 10, 2023, “families wiped out.” Generic info. Scant mention of causation or circumstances. Scant basic details such as identification of which families, or when, or where. Headlines like “strike on aid convoy” or “hospital bombed.” If you only read headlines, you have no idea that you’ve seen twenty-five headlines about the same one or two events, not twenty five separate events. And even if read the articles, you don’t fair much better because the details are just lacking. Obviously when Hamas uses cities, their own families and friends, as human shields, and war breaks out, entire families are going to be killed.
It seems very obvious to me that a mix of true and false “reports” falsely colored public opinion of the entire war, and continues to taint the basic facts. Before you know it, someone has their patriotism exploited and they go to Washington DC and self immolate trying to get their government to intervene on Hamas’s behalf. It’s called lawfare. It almost looks like it might be effective. It seems to have boiled down to Rafah. Will the lawfare provide enough cover for Hamas to survive the siege intact?
International law is based on custom and tradition, and most of all the circumstances. Present circumstances are unprecedented because Hamas has the most extensive tunnel warfare (read: human shield) operation in world history and a well established local customs and traditions of martyrdom (read: letting Hamas build tunnels under your house), and terrorism (read: operating entirely outside of international law while demanding its protection, whilst having an actual genocidal intent).
It seems very obvious to me that people who say Israel is commiting genocide or is an apartheid state are anti semitic or bad faith actors applying a double standard to Israel in order to sway opinion to their self interests, they are themselves anti semites, or they are basing their assessment on the aforementioned falsely colored factual circumstances, on lies and exaggeration, mixed with unfortunate truths.
Like, give me a break, apartheid? Israel has a Palestinian Supreme Court justice. He’s a citizen of Israel. People in Gaza are not citizens of Israel, obviously they don’t have the same rights of travel and protected legal status as people who are born or naturalized Israeli citizens. And still, apartheid is more than not just one group not having equal rights, it is the legal and political subjugation of the majority by the minority, sort of the opposite of democracy. That is the characteristic about apartheid that make it a crime against humanity, rather than merely run of the mill discrimination. South Africa didn’t have any black Supreme Court Justice during Apartheid, and they were not only citizens of South Africa but the majority.
I understand the bullet points were brief (and a bit cheeky yeah) but I think it helps to focus if you want the conversation to be productive. Like we could argue for days about a single “full version” of one of the bullet points. I think I do understand what you’re saying, though.
But in international law, genocide has a specific definition (sure you have seen it but just to be clear):
any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
Killing members of the group;
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group
When people say Israel is committing genocide they mean “they are doing this stuff.” Bearing in mind that any one is enough, the third act is clearly being done, for example. Israeli officials announced that they would purposefully be cutting off food and water to the civilians of Gaza. Having no food and water is clearly a condition that brings about destruction of life. The situation was created purposefully, announced beforehand and the consequences of this are being seen (yes people were talking about it sooner but, you know, we understand what happens if people don’t have food). Oh yeah and are you sick? Bad news, no hospitals.
There is no “unless a terrorist organisation is there” caveat to this, at least from my understanding. It is an act of genocide. We could do this for the first three or four pretty convincingly.
In law it’s called transferred intent. If you commit an armed bank robbery and a responding police officer shoots at you but hits and kills a family crossing the street, you are charged for their deaths since their deaths were within the range of probable consequences of committing armed robbery
I’m not sure this applies to genocide, but is “starving children to death” in the range of probable consequences of someone from the same place as you committing an atrocity? Is this an expected consequence? This is absurd, surely.
So from your explanations I’m still confused. Do you accept that Israel is committing acts of genocide, by this definition?
Then the only thing left is intent. But I feel like the amalek thing alone is pretty damning. Especially given IDF chanting it on the ground too. South Africa made a very convincing case for this overall.
Is your point that, “yes, these things would be genocide but some of the key foundations of the argument are false or misinformation”?
It seems very obvious to me that people who say Israel is commiting genocide or is an apartheid state are anti semitic or bad faith actors applying a double standard to Israel in order to sway opinion to their self interests, they are themselves anti semites, or they are basing their assessment on the aforementioned falsely colored factual circumstances, on lies and exaggeration, mixed with unfortunate truths.
I think by your estimation I would be using “falsely colored factual circumstances” etc? It seems a bit dangerous to assume bad faith when an international court has ruled that this is not an unreasonable accusation.
I’ve heard this argument before so many times now it’s weird. They (the person you are going back and forth with for example) 100% agree that Israel is taking all the actions. They are killing civilians, creating a situation in which food and aid are both dangerous and inconsistent, and use AI to specifically target family homes with large numbers of civilians.
The civilian casualties aren’t high because Hamas used human shields to make it high, it’s high because the IDF allowed for and made specific rules that targeting civilians was ok en masse, as collateral damage, using Lavender.
Hamas didn’t make Israel pursue this war in a way that was purposely destructive towards civilians. Israel chose to do this at every turn in reaction to Oct 6th. Israel has all the power in this situation to do things differently.
It’s not like I don’t get, I would want revenge too, but at some point they’re going to be forced to admit that the pain to the civilians is part of the point. And that their ACTUAL argument is that the civilians deserve it because of Hamas.
The court’s ruling takes South Africa’s vague and repetitive allegations as true. It’s only in that circumstance that the allegations is plausible. South Africa’s allegations fall apart under scrutiny. The underlying allegations are unverified reports and bullshit straight from the mouth of literal Hamas members.
Starving children to death? Hamas started a siege war with a vastly superior force and they didn’t pack enough food to feed their people. How is that not on them? I agree generally with “you break it, you bought it” with countries, but Hamas broke Gaza. The famine has been imminent since November 3, 2023, and it hasn’t materialized. I understand there is food insecurity and some malnutrition. Aid is flowing though and increasing and Israel secured more territory. Death tolls have been going down month over month. The mass starvation and genocide hasn’t been borne out.
If Israel is not gullible, could you please ELI5 why are they not allowing journalists to enter Gaza?
Because if they do and you are right they will show the whole world what a moral army Israel has. Right? Do you see the paradox here?
Weren’t Israel also found guilty to provide adequate humanitarian aid, cut food, electricity, drinking water, telecommunications, found guilty of using dumb and extremely powerful bombs over densely populated areas. Destroyed completely the health facilities in Gaza, along with their infrastructure, people’s home, forced mass displacement of millions of Gazans who by the way up until now are not allowed to return to their homes and induced immense suffering of millions of civilians? Isn’t this collective punishment? What about the reciprocity rule in wars? Do you not find the suffering of regular Palestinians extreme?
So please use a bit of critical thinking next time before posting something.
Found guilty to provide adequate humanitarian aid? No, they were not found guilty of anything. The ICJ denied South Africa’s request for a preliminary injunction and instead told Israel to submit a report and to be sure to provide aid. It literally didn’t order Israel to do anything it wasn’t already doing. Not sure where you got the idea that Israel had been found guilty of something by anyone.
Israel does allow journalists into Gaza in groups. But their reasoning is not secret and not unreasonable.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/high-court-says-israel-can-keep-barring-foreign-reporters-from-gaza/
Oh man, aren’t you living in parallel reality?
Didn’t Israel just kill 7 humanitarian workers, making it 200 since the beginning of the war? They hit three clearly marked vehicles with three separate bombs.
There are multiple reports that they don’t have a proper deconfliction mechanism 6 months into the war.
Children are dying from malnutrition.
There are multiple reports that their COGAT agency doesn’t provide clear guidance on what items are prohibited and are artificially delaying admitting humanitarian aid.
They didn’t do anything when a bunch of demonstrators blocked the humanitarian aid with days in an already dire situation in Gaza.
They are currently trying to block UNRWA from functioning in Gaza, during a pre-famine. Shall I also remind you that all UNRWA employees are also going through a vetting process by Israel and all their employees are checked by Israel and now they complain about them being Hamas. So if this is true, Israel has done pretty sloppy job. Shall we also comment the fact that they created a story where they were claiming 12 UNRWA employees to be involved with Hamas, out of 30K. That’s less than 0.5%. not to mention that they didn’t even provide publicly a proof for their allegations.
Heck, even their closest allies, the US and UK have rebuked them and told them to do more.
The reality is that they can open more crossings and start delivering adequate amounts of humanitarian aid, but they deliberately chose not to. And I can provide you a lot of articles from the likes of Reuters, AP, etc . who should be the least opinionated sources.
Regarding the journalists: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68423995
https://www.ebu.ch/news/2024/03/call-to-allow-foreign-journalists-into-gaza
And all this coming from the most “moral” army, right.
Maybe next time you should start using that head of yours for something more than sucking your state’s propaganda, and perhaps try to put yourself in the regular Gazan’s shoes, and tell me how you would feel.
I think your knowledge of this is superficial and you’re actually the one in the parallel reality. Like, just one example: Dozens of countries didn’t suspend funding to UNRWA over 12 workers, but 12 workers became the face of it. It’s the single largest employer in Gaza. It’s like Wal-Mart (or is it Amazon now, in America).
You really think only 12 of them are in Hamas? The actual report from Israeli intelligence suggested 12 people helped with October 7. It found that there were thousands, up to half of all UNRWA employees, with direct supportive ties to members of the local government (Hamas, very popular in Gaza), and likely hundreds to thousands of actual card-carrying members, in addition to the 12 known employees who used UNRWA resources to execute October 7.
UNRWA has long been accused of enabling Hamas and acting as an impediment to peace.
Israel can and should allow more aid. And it seems like its failure to do so is going to cost its leadership their jobs in the next election, not Hamas though, because their leadership is holed up in Rafah surrounded by hundreds of thousands of human shields and the first thing they did after being elected to power was cancel all future elections.
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Intent is clear and was shown at the ICJ case, that’s why it was ruled a plausible genocide and ordered Israel to take actions to prevent genocide. Israel was failed to do, which is why the ICJ ruled on additional measures in March. Which again Israel has failed to do.
There is over 500 incitements of violence and genocidal incitement, appearing in the forms of social media posts, television interviews, and official statements from Israeli politicians, army personnel, journalists, and other influential personalities.
The Court considers that, with regard to the situation described above, Israel must, in accordance with its obligations under the Genocide Convention, in relation to Palestinians in Gaza, take all measures within its power to prevent the commission of all acts within the scope of Article II of this Convention, in particular: (a) killing members of the group; (b) causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; © deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; and (d) imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group. The Court recalls that these acts fall within the scope of Article II of the Convention when they are committed with the intent to destroy in whole or in part a group as such. The Court further considers that Israel must ensure with immediate effect that its military forces do not commit any of the above-described acts.
Application of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide in the Gaza Strip (South Africa v. Israel) and Summery by the International Court of Justice
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- The Court recalls that, in its Order of 26 January 2024, it concluded that the civilian population in Gaza was extremely vulnerable, noting that many Palestinians in the Gaza Strip had “no access to the most basic foodstuffs, potable water, electricity, essential medicines or heating” (Application of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide in the Gaza Strip (South Africa v. Israel), Provisional Measures, Order of 26 January 2024, para. 70). In its decision communicated to the Parties by letters of 16 February 2024, the Court noted, quoting the United Nations Secretary-General, that the developments in the Gaza Strip, and in Rafah in particular, “would exponentially increase what is already a humanitarian nightmare with untold regional consequences” (see paragraph 7 above). The Court observes with regret that, since then, the catastrophic living conditions of the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip have deteriorated further, in particular in view of the prolonged and widespread deprivation of food and other basic necessities to which the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip have been subjected.
- The Court observes that Palestinians in Gaza are no longer facing only a risk of famine, as noted in the Order of 26 January 2024, but that famine is setting in, with at least 31 people, including 27 children, having already died of malnutrition and dehydration according to the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) (OCHA, “Hostilities in the Gaza Strip and Israel — reported impact, Day 169”, 25 March 2024).
- In conformity with its obligations under the Genocide Convention, and in view of the worsening conditions of life faced by Palestinians in Gaza, in particular the spread of famine and starvation, Israel shall: (a) take all necessary and effective measures to ensure, without delay, in full co-operation with the United Nations, the unhindered provision at scale by all concerned of urgently needed basic services and humanitarian assistance, including food, water, electricity, fuel, shelter, clothing, hygiene and sanitation requirements, as well as medical supplies and medical care to Palestinians throughout Gaza, including by increasing the capacity and number of land crossing points and maintaining them open for as long as necessary; and (b) ensure with immediate effect that its military does not commit acts which constitute a violation of any of the rights of the Palestinians in Gaza as a protected group under the Genocide Convention, including by preventing, through any action, the delivery of urgently needed humanitarian assistance.
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Are you dense? This is an ongoing case.
It’s been established that Israel is failing to prevent genocide in Gaza.
The March Order added additional measures for Israel to abide by to prevent genocide and to have another Ruling in a month. Israel failed to follow the previous February measures, and are also failing to follow these current March measures.
The ICJ Court indicates the following provincial measures:
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The State of Israel shall, in conformity with its obligations under the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, and in view of the worsening conditions of life faced by Palestinians in Gaza, in particular the spread of famine and starvation
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Take all necessary and effective measures to ensure, without delay, in full co-operation with the United Nations, the unhindered provision at scale by all concerned of urgently needed basic services and humanitarian assistance, including food, water, electricity, fuel, shelter, clothing, hygiene and sanitation requirements, as well as medical supplies and medical care to Palestinians throughout Gaza, including by increasing the capacity and number of land crossing points and maintaining them open for as long as necessary
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Ensure with immediate effect that its military does not commit acts which constitute a violation of any of the rights of the Palestinians in Gaza as a protected group under the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, including by preventing, through any action, the delivery of urgently needed humanitarian assistance;
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Decides that the State of Israel shall submit a report to the Court on all measures taken to give effect to this Order, within one month as from the date of this Order
Instead Israel continues on with it’s genocide, ignoring the Courts orders.
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The judge leaned back in a squeaky chair, self-righteously satisfied that the letter of the law had been followed.
The spirit of the law lay trampled on the ground, unable to get up or even breathe. Until the public, individuals carrying the breath of actual humanity, walked into the judge’s chambers, giving the spirit mouth-to-mouth resuscitation. Offering a mirror to the judge, who didn’t know how reflection works.
Gimme a break… A war with supposedly 20000 casualties in a highly dense country with 2 million people is NOT a genocide.
If Hamas and the palestinians want the war to be over, they could just give back the hostages they took on October 7…
Pretty simple really
Read the current ICJ express rulings. It’s plausibly a genocide, given politicians and citizen’s of Israel statements on this issue, and their actions
