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Many sports have two divisions: Open and Womens. This even includes ones like Chess and various e-sports. The NFL, NBA, and MLB all allow women, or at least have no rule banning them (In the former two cases, ever, in the latter, any more, the 1952 ban was rescinded in the 90’s.)
So to answer your question: Everyone can already compete in one division.
The NFL, NBA, and MLB all allow women
They may technically allow them, but do you think most women, even very skilled ones, would want to face the abuse they would get from players, coaches and fans if they decided to do it?
Just because it is allowed doesn’t mean it wouldn’t be a major hardship. And I think the vast majority of women in sports are smart enough to understand that is what they would face.
Replace women with black people and your argument sounds exactly like the enlightened individuals arguing that baseball shouldn’t be integrated even if there were black men out there good enough to play ball with white men.
Jackie Robinson absolutely understood that he would face unyielding discrimination. So did the flood of black ballplayers that followed him in the years to come. Hardship didn’t deter any of them.
I didn’t say anything about ‘shouldn’t.’ I’m explaining why it generally doesn’t happen. If a woman things she can handle all of that discrimination and feels she’s athletically capable, I’m not going to be the one to tell her not to.
Plenty of women in shooting sports. Turns out shooting is one of those sports where men don’t seem to have a significant biological advantage. None of them complain about abuse.
So you’re saying all male athletes except in shooting sports have a biological advantage over all female athletes? The worst NBA player is still better than the best WNBA player?
I don’t follow NBA but I do casually watch some hockey (including women’s hockey) and I’d be surprised if even the very best women’s hockey players could beat a team made up of lower ranked NHL players. The men will have better puck handling, higher speed, more weight, and they shoot more often opening up more plays.
My anecdotal sports experience, for what that’s worth: when I was 14-15 playing soccer, women’s university teams would play against us for training. The women were taller than us on average, ran a bit faster, used more vocal communication, and were much more physically aggressive. The men had better endurance, ball-handling, and positioning. We never lost, and no one seemed surprised by this.
It’s not just the obvious height and weight advantages at play, and I’m not sure how much socialization matters but I’d wager less than our biology in sports and other extreme athletic endeavours.
I never said those were your words. I’m telling you how it comes across, and I’m letting you you’re wrong about the reason “why it generally doesn’t happen”.
At least in baseball, a sport where intelligence, reaction time, skill, and experience matter a lot more than raw strength, the barriers for little girls who dream of playing in the Majors are a lot more than just the discrimination they might face if they make it that far. It’s the deeply rooted cultural barriers that prevent women from even getting a shot, and in a sport where even 1st round draft picks spend years in the minors getting their reps in, lack of experience is a death sentence no matter how much raw talent you have.
At every level of play, girls are heavily encouraged to switch to softball or outright denied the opportunity to play. They’re excluded from youth travel ball teams because “the boys will be bigger in a few years and need the reps”. A lot of high school teams won’t let them try out because Title IX considers a softball team equivalent. It took a lawsuit for Litttle League to allow girls to play baseball. Young women playing baseball at smaller colleges are often lured away with softball scholarships at big universities (not that there’s anything wrong with pursuing better educational opportunities).
Every woman playing college or minor league baseball says the same thing; they faced far more discrimination as kids just trying to play than they ever have in the locker room once they got the chance.
Okay, so what is your explanation for why there aren’t women playing major league baseball or in the NBA or the NFL?
I think I’ve already pretty thoroughly answered the question of why women haven’t played baseball at the major league level since Toni Stone, Mamie Johnson, and Connie Morgan played in the Negro Leagues in the early 50s; women have been systematically shut out of baseball for decades, and while those barriers are slowly being torn down, their effects will continue to be felt for a long time. We’re only just now beginning to see women play at the collegiate and minor league level, so I would imagine we’re still a few decades away from women playing at the Major League level.
The NBA and NFL are entirely different stories. Those are sports where brute strength is absolutely required and being huge helps a lot. It’s definitely not some fear of discrimination that’s keeping women out of those sports though.
Edit: Because I’ve seen your other responses, and I can tell you’ve been waiting for me to say something about how men are stronger than women so you can have your gotcha moment, I’ll also say that trans women are women, not men. That male testosterone advantage doesn’t exist for someone who has to suppress theirs for at least a year before competing to a level below what many cis women naturally have. Trans women have competed alongside cis women for decades and it’s never been a problem. Republicans just needed a new boogie man.
Right, but no women? Not one since the introduction of the rule? I’ve know many female athletes and all of them would and could handle the abuse if they wanted to compete with male athletes.
At the same time, can you make an evidentiary argument that there is not one WNBA player that is more skilled than the worst NBA player?
In general, and I’m sure some people here will be incensed at the suggestion, people do not give a shit about women’s sports and the only time many of them do is when they find out a “man” is competing in them.
Women care about women’s sports.
A lot of them don’t. Just like a lot of women are against subsidized pre and post-natal care. Just because you’re a woman doesn’t mean you care about women’s issues.
And, based on what I’ve seen, the vast majority of complaints about this come from men anyway.
I have said it before and I’ll say it again: this issue exists to stir up controversy. Very few people can ever be professional athletes, but lots of people suffer as a result of the hostility generated by this debate.
Also, very few people talk about trans men in sport. There’s no real justification for excluding trans men from sport other than fragile egos of male athletes being scared of being outperformed by an afab athlete.
Also also, if we’re making the argument that people with higher exposure to testosterone for a short duration in their life have increased athletic performance (which to be clear is kind of true but not actually relevant for all trans women), then I have to remind you that anabolic steroids can benefit athletes for up to a decade, which is exactly much fucking longer than these drugs remain detectable in an athlete’s system.
Also also also, professional sport is stupid and doesn’t deserve this much attention. It certainly shouldn’t be allowed to stir up this much hate toward regular ass trans folks just wanting to live their damn lives, but it does have that effect.
The narrative around trans people, whether it’s bathrooms or sports, is always around cis men pretending to be trans women to invade women’s spaces.
I agree with you except for your last point. Even if you don’t have a personal interest, it’s a massive industry with hugely influential celebrities.
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This article isn’t a moral panic. Did anyone even look at it? It’s talking about four athletes and their experiences, some of them positive.
Agreed 100%. Sports are entertainment. This is a distraction. Get people upset about trans women in sports and they might get less upset about things like healthcare costs. Or at least not upset enough to stop voting for bigots.
I don’t disagree with you, necessarily. It’s an incredibly grey issue and one of the few issues that the left shouldn’t be as absolutist about and have a conversation. And beyond that, it’s so low on the list of priorities. Even for trans people themselves I can’t imagine this is high on the list.
But your Protip makes you look like a tool. Why preemptively try to act like you’re some kind of martyr?
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“Sort by controversial” is just complaining about being hidden due to downvotes. It also doesn’t make sense for multiple reasons. They’ve already seen your comment, you’re upvoted, you’re not necessarily going to get downvotes due to a nuanced conversation, Lemmy isn’t usually busy enough to be buried in comments, etc.
You can say it’s a controversial subject without victimizing yourself.
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Sorry you’re offended. I hope you get better.
If you’re position is excluding trans women from sport because of vibes you’re just a transphobe.
There is no rabid hoard of transwomen waiting to overrun sport and sweep the awards. Until recently this wasn’t even an issue, the Olympics has allowed trans women to compete from like 2000. Where are the medals?
We’re a tiny population who generally perform worse than natal women because our T is lower. Despite all the contrived “just asking questions” about skeleton size or whatever nonsense there is no clear picture of advantage. At any rate tall women aren’t banned from sport. Even women with PCOS aren’t banned from sport.
We don’t have seperate leagues for people raised in stable households on good diets and yet that’s got performance benefits that swamp anything from having a slightly higher forearm to middle finger ratio or whatever insane thing people bring up.
This whole thing is completely drummed up and is just an acceptable way for the general unease cis people feel about trans people to be voiced.
We don’t have seperate leagues for people raised in stable households on good diets and yet that’s got performance benefits that swamp anything from having a slightly higher forearm to middle finger ratio or whatever insane thing people bring up.
This is actually a really good point. There’s no much natural variation in body types and hormone levels.
If this is all drummed up, then why do transgender athletes have such a problem with competing in the all-comers category instead of the women’s category, which is reserved for XX born females who have all of the disadvantages you describe above since birth?
The same fucking reason why people resented segregation you idiot.
You are not this stupid, this is entirely bad faith. Just say “I find trans women gross and I don’t give a shit about trans men” instead of pretending you have anything principled to say.
Except skin color does not affect athletic performance whereas sex does. There is a huge difference in segregation and this topic.
Please provide evidence that trans women’s performance in athletics competitions is favourably outside of the expected range for cis women.
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Why though? Why these categories and not others? Why is being transgender meaningful for sport?
Artificially altering your hormones should exclude you from competing with people who aren’t.
Why though? Also you are aware that every woman on hormonal birth control gets excluded using that criteria. Or undergoing treatment for PCOS (which amusingly makes them more fair competition).
you do know things about womens’ health right, you’re not just talking from a position of ignorance are you? That would be a pretty silly thing to do.
You know what, I agree. Screw it. Let anybody dope however they choose and get rid of gender categories. Doesn’t bother me honestly.
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So black women can’t compete even after they suppress their naturally higher T? Mhm
Don’t feed the trolls/bigots. Just ignore them, nothing good will come from interacting, trust me
Yeah it’s a fairly standard grift now, they point at again random trans women winning (or make them up) and say it’s not fair because obviously trans women are just dudes in wigs, and because that’s what a lot of cis people think (or at most - they know that breast implants are a thing despite the fact trans women avoid them like the plague) and they screech about muh biomechanical males and females and whatnot.
You can explain and show a million times how most trans women have lower Testosterone levels than cis women do (weak biological loose regulation vs the cold perfection of medicine) and it will do fuck all because it’s all pretense, if trans women were wizards who changed completely including genetically they’d still just wanna brand us for it.
So tiring and exhausting. All just screaming into the void. So much bloodlust. Can’t wait for the civil war at this point.
EDIT: ah the bloodthirsty have come here
EDIT2: for all the people below saying I’m being too extreme just a reminder that I did not even say anything mean in this comment. Still downvoted to oblivion and disagreed with like some extreme take. You take from that what you will.
Trans women are biologically female btw in all ways that aren’t literally just the presence of the Y chromosome, from gonads, to their blood, to gene expression :3
Sports are inherently unfair, and trans women’s strength advantage is lost with transition.
Puberty blockers for minors are the compromise. (this would also eliminate the stupid sport shit hence why they wanna ban it)
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EDIT: Now who would downvote a patient and thorough explanation evidenced with scientific data that just slightly does not align with how a cisoid imagines things work?
Most of those articles are either disingenuous, if not outright false. How? Glad you asked.
The whole issue is disingenuous to begin with. Sports is a competition of genetic freaks and is fundamentally unfair.
The reason you see black women win at athletics is also because they have more T on average lmfao.
In fact, restrictions on trans women’s T levels often end up banning black women. https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2021/07/two-cis-black-women-banned-olympics-natural-testosterone-levels/
https://www.aclu.org/news/racial-justice/the-international-olympic-committee-is-failing-black-women
I have lower T than them btw so as a trans woman I’d actually be fine, and probably at a disadvantage to them
These are the latest rules if I’m not wrong:
https://www.iaaf.org/news/press-release/eligibility-regulations-for-female-classifica
The limit is reducing to 5 nmol/L to enter.
I have 0.5 nmol/L as a trans woman and have had this level for 10 years since my teens, because I’m trans and suppressing T and raising E is literally what medical transition is.
I’d likely have lower strength as a result and would not be able to win, no matter how much I trained.
https://academic.oup.com/jes/article/5/Supplement_1/A792/6241278
The reason Usain Bolt wins the run is because he’s got long legs, someone else could train all their life - and they will never win if they don’t have a bigger advantage.
I want to make this bit crystal clear:
I don’t really give a shit about sports.
If you’d like to just ban all trans people completely and fully then please do so.
But the right-wing think-tanks behind it won’t do any such thing, because then their golden goose - the wedge issue that awakens the bloodlust in the average cis person - kicking a thing in a thing - is what they’re using as a stick to beat trans people with and take our rights to healthcare (this includes minors btw) etc.
I think the truth of the matter is that trans women are seen as just blokes in wigs by the vast majority of cis people and because of weird societal shit that makes it bad, and the reality that human bodies are fairly malleable and vague is hard or undesirable to accept, therefore the easiest solution is to hate trannies, if possible while maintaining the pretense of a moral high ground ala “fairness in sports” despite the fact it’s almost a comtradiction in terms.
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The eleven paragraphs are a pretty light explanation all in all, but that’s life, shit’s pretty complicated.
Roadblocks? What are you even on about?
Odd that you would focus on testosterone levels instead of muscle mass. It’s certainly true that trans women have testosterone levels comparable with cis women, and also true that they would lose some amount of muscle mass due to that. However, they still retain more muscle than a cis woman would have, in general.
I think it’s legitimate to ask if that’s fair.
Ah, because testosterone levels hugely influence muscle mass and resultant strength and performance. The longest study on the matter actually ended up with trans women having on average LESS muscle strength than cis women.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8090355/
I don’t actually give a single shit about sports btw.
But this is a good example, this issue brings out the inherent bloodthirst many cis have towards trans people.
…bloodthirst?? Because somebody disagreed with you? How about you calm down instead of being such an extremist. And no, your single study with like 8 people in each group is not more convincing than all of the other studies that you’re deliberately choosing to ignore.
How about you listen to trans women rather than tell someone to “calm down” when addressing one of the main transphobic talking points? And doing so with a ton of evidence and personal experience? Asshole.
Calm down. And no, there has not been a “ton” of evidence. So far I’ve seen a grand total of one actual study, and it’s a very small one.
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Learn to read.
Telling someone to calm down twice is like the definition of trolling lmao
Are you admitting that you’re the same person on two accounts? That’s really pathetic you know. Can’t your ideas stand on their own?
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Believe me when I say that I support my LGBTQ+ peeps.
And I concede that I don’t know much about the subject of trans people in sports and physical capabilities.
But in my view, trans women have higher probability to be stronger than most cis female athletes. I’m not saying it happens all the time. But it happens. There is a reason there are competition categories. Even in the same gender, for example, in boxing, there are weight divisions.
So, I don’t know what the solution is. Measure the amount of strength and categorize accordingly? Having an extra “transgender” category? I tell you - I would watch this! Not in a morbid way, but a genuine one, no different from watching women’s soccer or men’s tennis, for example.
But in my view, trans women have higher probability to be stronger than most cis female athletes. I’m not saying it happens all the time.
If they are on hormone blockers and HRT, they honestly do not have a higher probability. That said, it would be pretty fucking invasive to make sure they are taking those consistently.
But then, what’s the solution? If an athlete says “hm, I’ll stop taking this hormone to have a competitive advantage over everyone else,” how’s that different from doing the opposite? (e.g. taking hormones.)
I really don’t have answers to these questions. It’s an important topic, though.
I don’t have a solution and I doubt a perfect one exists but did want to add in info to make sure people are not under the assumption that people on HRT have done support of significant advantage.
For me to have an informed solution, I would have to know how long it takes for muscle to come back once HRT is stopped, what the side effects are of starting and stopping HRT repeatedly, and probably a host of other questions that I do not have the answer to. Trans people are not quick to simply stop taking their hormones and hormone blockers. Considering almost all of them went through years of struggle to transition, stopping them destroys years of progress and some of that can be irreversible. I do recognize that money can convince some people although there is not a ton of money in women’s sports.
The Olympic Committee used to test testosterone levels but had to shelve that because, while rare, cis women occasionally have higher testosterone than the threshold that was set. So they went back to inspecting genitals for a while. They could go back to testosterone level testing for trans women but that is a little discriminatory since it targets them. I don’t have a perfect solution and I’m not sure one exists that isn’t going to piss at least one group off.
It is indeed a complicated subject.
Thank you for your insight.
Anything you say followed by “but” is completely meaningless, know that all the “LGBTQ+ peeps” here you claim to support now know to avoid you like the plague
Anything you say followed by “but”
Jesus. What a weak, generalizing argument.
You’re going to make me go full godwin. Imagine saying “I support my Jewish friends and what happened to them at the Holocaust was heinous. But what Israel is doing to Gazans is inexcusable” then someone telling you “anything after the ‘but’ is meaningless, and all the Jewish community here will avoid you like the plague.”
I just hope you’re a troll.
Can’t wait for the civil war at this point.
EDIT: ah the bloodthirsty have come here
I guess the hypocrisy is lost on you. Frankly I’m inclined to believe you’re a right wing troll trying to make trans people look bad at this point.
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I was with you until that last part lol. I’m not ready for a war.
But yeah, no evidence will persuade people. They have super intense beliefs about trans people because they saw something on Fox News or their social media feed. Confirmation bias and whatnot
It’s not hard to find evidence to support the skepticism about trans women in sports:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33648944/
I’m curious what evidence you’re talking about?
Yeah. I went from being a fairly progressive trans liberationist to a bit more conservative transmedicalist arguing that sports and healthcare are issues best settled by science and attempt to focus on dysphoria and the physical literal aspects of everything but even that does not work.
No matter how much evidence cis people simply do not believe you, no matter what you say: trans women = bio men or maybe have even more testosterone and thus muscle mass, no matter what they think everyone transitioned because trauma or some psychological social bullshit they made up in their stupid fucking battle of the sexes.
They mostly are either too evil, or too stupid to understand us and I don’t really give a shit which is which anymore. It’s not always true, but it’s a safe assumption.
And yeah I don’t want a war either ofc, but I see no other end to society in general as it is now.
We need a fucking trans-ethnostate.
They mostly are either too evil, or too stupid to understand us and I don’t really give a shit which is which anymore. It’s not always true, but it’s a safe assumption.
You have become what you hate, congrats on your bigotry.
If you don’t understand why a trans person would need to assume that cis people don’t understand trans people, you’re really just proving the point
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Why the new account? Did you get banned for being a vicious bigot on your last one?
No I’m still here :)
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