I am not a native English speaker and I have sometimes referred to people as male and female (as that is what I have been taught) but I have received some backlash in some cases, especially for the word “female”, is there some negative thought in the word which I am unaware of?

I don’t know if this is the best place to ask, if it’s not appropriate I have no problem to delete it ^^

  • TheBananaKing@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    Female as an adjective is perfectly fine.

    A female patient, a female politician, a female customer, etc. That’s the best way to refer to those.

    What’s bad is using ‘female’ as a noun: "A female. "

    In general, you just don’t use adjectives-as-nouns to refer to people. You don’t call someone “a gay”, “a black”, or “a Chinese”. That is offensive, and “a female” has the same kind of feel.

    (there are exceptions to the above: you can call someone ‘an American’ or 'A German", but not “A French”. I don’t understand why - if you can’t feel your way, best just avoid it)

    Now, you could get around it by calling someone “a female person” - except that we already have a word for “female person”, and that’s “woman”. And to go out of your way to avoid saying “woman” makes you sound like some kind of incel weirdo, and you don’t want that.

    • pr06lefs@lemmy.ml
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      1 year ago

      Interesting point with adjectives vs nouns.

      ‘a Frenchman’ would be more correct than ‘a French’. Because French is only an adjective, while American and German are both nouns and adjectives. But Frenchman is not gender neutral like German or American.

      Could go with Francophone, but that’s any french speaking person so that includes canadians, africans, etc.

      And, it would seem to make sense to go with Frank, but the Franks were originally germans, then expanded their territory to include France, and the name stuck there but not in their original territory, so is it really correct to refer to the French as Franks? Since no one does it, I would guess not.

    • Jojo@lemm.ee
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      1 year ago

      except that we already have a word for “female person”, and that’s “woman”. And to go out of your way to avoid saying “woman” makes you sound like some kind of incel weirdo

      Sounds more like a terf or “gender critical” person, but maybe that’s just my experience.

    • Anamnesis@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      You can soften “a black” or “a Chinese” entirely by adding “person” to the end of it. English is weird.

    • ripcord@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      My wife tells me that using as an adjective is just as bad and that I should always say “woman”, e.g. a woman politician and never a female politician.

      I generally disagree and it seems fine and not disrespectful at all. But it’s somehat less up to me - I’m not a female.

      • Queen___Bee@lemmy.world
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        10 months ago

        I think that’s because the descriptors come after the noun in reporting. Similar to how documentation is done for other professions, like healthcare. If it’s out of the context of reporting, or other situations listed in the site below, it sounds grammatically strange or rude.

        https://myenglishgrammar.com/lessons/adjectives-function-as-nouns/

        Source: I’m in healthcare.

        Anti Commercial-AI license (CC By-NC-SA 4.0

        • intensely_human@lemm.ee
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          1 year ago

          “the suspect is a six foot, white male"

          think that’s because the descriptors come after the noun in reporting

          No they don’t. The word “male” is the noun here.

          Why did people upvote that?

          • Jojo@lemm.ee
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            1 year ago

            Because it’s still acting as a descriptor rather than an identifier, despite playing the syntactic role of a noun instead of an adjective. It’s more about semantics in this case than syntax.

              • Jojo@lemm.ee
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                1 year ago

                I know it’s playing the syntactic role of a noun, that’s what I said. But it’s playing the semantic role of a descriptor. The “thing” being described here is a suspect, one that is white and also male, as opposed to a male who is white and also suspected.

                Syntactically, the word male was a noun. But semantically, it’s still just describing the suspect, rather than identifying the thing to be described.

      • Jojo@lemm.ee
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        1 year ago

        Because the police never try to dehumanize “suspects” and “perpetrators”.

    • xmunk@sh.itjust.works
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      1 year ago

      Unless you’re a ferengi. /s

      I think a big part that’s skeevy to me is that gender and sex are comparatively unimportant individual traits, referring to someone by their gender happens far more often for women and it’s a hold over of misogyny. There are much more interesting individual traits that identify us than our sex or presented gender.

    • intensely_human@lemm.ee
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      1 year ago

      there are exceptions to the above: you can call someone ‘an American’ or 'A German", but not “A French”. I don’t understand why - if you can’t feel your way, best just avoid it

      And yet here you are confidently expounding exactly how this works. Why, if you know you don’t understand, are you weighing in on this like you’re an authority on it?

      • Jojo@lemm.ee
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        1 year ago

        Because fluent speakers of a language know the rules even if they don’t understand them. Why can you have a big green dog but not a green big dog? Because that’s the way the language works.

      • ArcaneSlime@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        1 year ago

        Tbh I think it’s just because it sounds bad phonetically, since “a Frenchman” or “an Englishman” are both acceptable as well, but “a French” or “An English” just sounds dumb. Of course you can only do that to white countries, don’t try it with China.

    • Wanderer@lemm.ee
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      1 year ago

      Now, you could get around it by calling someone “a female person” - except that we already have a word for “female person”, and that’s “woman”.

      We did have a word that meant that and everyone knew it. But that word has changed into something else.

        • Wanderer@lemm.ee
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          1 year ago

          Female person doesn’t mean women.

          The word has changed so it’s not correct to say that.

          • 🔍🦘🛎@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            Unless you’re someone’s doctor, it’s almost never relevant to discuss someone’s sex. Gender is how we refer to people in most contexts, and when it’s important (e.g. discussing pregnancy) it’s not rude to make a distinction.

            • Wanderer@lemm.ee
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              1 year ago

              I’m talking about this

              we already have a word for “female person”, and that’s “woman”

    • Quastamaza@lemmy.ml
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      1 year ago

      Oh dear… And why isn’t “a male” just as bad? And what’s intrinsically wrong about those two as a noun? Why is it ok to call someone “a fire fighter“, “a journalist”, and not “a female”? Is it something to feel shame about? Bah. It’s really beyond me. Thank god i live in Italy, where this kind of stuff still struggles to gain traction, but alas it will do eventually, since hey, you know, we’re all living in america after all. What’s more, it’s not entirely true: now you can get scolded even for using female as an adjective (it happened to me more than once), my friend. And it’ll get worse, just you wait and see.

      • TheBananaKing@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        “I had coffee with one of the males at work”

        “There’s a male waiting for you downstairs”

        “I need to see a male about a dog”

        All of them would be weird as fuck, and yes, they’d sound demeaning. They don’t have the same weird-incel vibe, but that’s just an accident of culture.

        • RBWells@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          Right. This is the best way to figure out if it sounds weird.

          If you would use “man” then the word to use is “woman”. If you would use “male” then “female”.

          So if someone asks is the doctor male or female? No problem. Even if they ask “is the doctor a male or a female?” Still no problem. Kinda odd but certainly not offensive.

          The problem arises when someone says “men and females” that does sound weird and kinda insulting. As would “women and males”.

          If you would use the word man, use woman.

          If you would use the word male, use female.