• jordanlund@lemmy.worldM
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    9 months ago

    Why not call for a full Russian withdrawl instead? Why should the defenders of their homeland be the ones to surrender?

    The fact that a former Superpower was not able to roll Ukraine in the first 10 days, 100 days, what is it now? 745 days… yeah. It’s time for Russia to get out.

    • harderian729@lemmy.world
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      9 months ago

      I think that’s not how war works.

      Usually, the winning side doesn’t leave when they’re winning.

      It’s up to the losing side to surrender.

      Things would be different if Ukraine had a chance at winning, but that’s not likely to happen.

      Edit: I just want you all to think about how you feel now and compare it to when Ukraine loses. Do you remember when Ukraine’s counteroffensive was starting? How confident you were that they could win?

      This is what I mean by you people being victims of propaganda without even realizing. Average just keeps getting lower as time goes on.

      • Furbag@lemmy.world
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        9 months ago

        People said Ukraine would be flattened in a month like… Two years ago now. If you think Ukraine doesn’t have a chance of winning, you’re not paying the slightest amount of attention.

        If Russia could win, they’d have done it by now. This is Afghanistan 2.0 for Russia.

        • fuckingkangaroos@lemm.ee
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          9 months ago

          This is way, way worse than Afghanistan. They lost 20k troops in Afghanistan, and a small fraction of the equipment they’ve lost in Ukraine. How many A-50s and flagships did they lose back then? They’re getting literally decimated or worse when you look at lost troops, jets, armor, and ships.

          Afghanistan helped destabilize the USSR. Hopefully Ukraine destabilizes Russians current Mafia government and gives the Russians another shot at democracy.

      • jordanlund@lemmy.worldM
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        9 months ago

        Everyone expected Ukraine to be steamrolled virtually instantly.

        Instead they have held on for 745 days, killed innumerable Russians and destroyed god knows how many tanks, planes, and ships.

        You can never under-estimate the will of people fighting for their home country.

      • muntedcrocodile@lemmy.world
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        9 months ago

        You my friend have been propagandised yourself ukraine without funding will lose. Ukraine with funding will win. Russia is doing eveeything in its power to stop funding. The narative that ukraine has already won/lost is russian propaganda to stop funding.

        Grow up learn how a friggin war works and stop being a shill for russian propaganda.

        • harderian729@lemmy.world
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          9 months ago

          Ukraine with funding will win.

          Just like with their counteroffensive?

          At what point do you people admit you were wrong about something?

          • muntedcrocodile@lemmy.world
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            9 months ago

            They went for a significant push to try get behind the lines it didnt work cos funding was delayed and they didnt have the reasources earlyer (at that point they where still missing many of the resources they have now). They switched tacktics after that point its called adaptation tends to be needed in war its russias akillies heel. Then with the new stratedgy they where making significant ground on the offensive far greater than what russia has been latly ukrain also managed this with a truly impressive kd ratio.

            I know im not wrong ive looked at the map ive plotted respurces on a graph russias resources have a y intercept as long as ukraine is being funded they do not thus they can sustain the war for longer.

            You my friend are clearly a russian shill even if ukraine is gonna lose its still a more efficient way to fight them than doing it ourselves they will fuck with nato that will cost the western world deerly instead we give ukraine old shit they fight for us and save shitonnes of money since that must be all u care about cos human life clearly doesnt matter to u.

              • muntedcrocodile@lemmy.world
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                9 months ago

                Either give me a counter to my points.

                Admit that you were wrong about something.

                Or shut the fuck up and admit you have no clue what your talking about.

                Pick one!!!

                Snarky comments is simply u deflecting from your incapability to engage with someone in a civil discussion about a topic you clearly feel very strongly about.

        • harderian729@lemmy.world
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          9 months ago

          It’s crazy people like you think you have a point with comments like these.

          Just another reason why I don’t take the masses seriously at this point.

      • Neuromancer@lemm.ee
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        9 months ago

        Russia isn’t winning. Ukraine isn’t losing.

        Right now, it’s a stalemate. The longer it goes on, the more likely Ukraine will lose. Russia has more people, and Ukraine can’t strike deep into Russia.

        What surprised me was that Russia seemed to have solved its ammunition problem. It would appear Russia is out-producing the West in artillery rounds.

        I am pro-Ukrainian, but I don’t want Americans on the ground in Ukraine. They must fight their own battle, but I support sending weapons. I wish we had some more weapons earlier before the Russians could entrench like they did. That is why the counter-offensive failed.

        Russia will lose if its people get tired of this war. At some point, mothers will not want to send their children to die in a war they didn’t want. People like to paint Russians as monsters, but most Russian people are decent people. Their government has fed them lies, and they thought they were the good guys. Most of the kids fighting over there think they are removing Nazis. Most of them are drafted and most likely don’t even want to be there.

        One thing that drives me nuts is how people think everything is so black and white. The world is very grey. Good kids on both sides are dying because Putin wants Ukraine.

        If you have never read or watched All is Quiet on the Western Front, I think it accurately describes what is happening.

        • fuckingkangaroos@lemm.ee
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          9 months ago

          People keep saying that the longer it goes on the more it favors Russia, but the Kremlin is the one with questionable support and disarray. Ukrainians are united, they want to defend themselves. Morale is in Ukraine’s side.

          Also, France is putting together a coalition to send troops. Who’s going to go back the Kremlin up? Nobody… they have no friends, no good will, just rough agreements with other authoritarian governments.

          • Neuromancer@lemm.ee
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            9 months ago

            It is a numbers game. Russia has more cannon fodder. The Russians didn’t defeat germany by being better, they defeated Germany by throwing more people at the problem.

            Who will back Russia? North Korea, Iran, and possibly China.

            If we are distracted in Ukraine, North Korea can invade South Korea, Iran can stir the pot, and China will take Taiwan. All places where we have treaties to prevent just that from happening. Our military is not designed to fight on that many fronts at once.

            • fuckingkangaroos@lemm.ee
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              9 months ago

              Just because Russia has a larger population doesn’t mean they can use it how they want. Ukrainians want to fight and defend their home and families, there’s nothing like that in the Russian military.

              The US could commit some forces to Ukraine without weakening their ability to defend Taiwan.

              I agree that’s the big picture though. Those authoritarian governments, with some support from BRICS and other dictatorships like Venezuela, are challenging the US-Euro hegemony.

              • Neuromancer@lemm.ee
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                9 months ago

                They’ve been doing it for years how they want. Putin doesn’t like when people disagree. I’ve never seen so many people accidentally fall out of windows.

                Until you see units refusing to go to war, my point stands.

                • fuckingkangaroos@lemm.ee
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                  9 months ago

                  There have been many people refusing to fight for the Kremlin. They have a blocking line that kills their soldiers if they turn around… that’s their level or morale.

                  • Neuromancer@lemm.ee
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                    9 months ago

                    That is Russia being Russia. They did that in ww2.

                    Not sure how “historical” everything is but they showed that in enemy at the gates. That really was a shocking scene.

            • Mirshe@lemmy.world
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              9 months ago

              NK invading SK would be roundly crushed in an afternoon by the carrier group posted there SPECIFICALLY to prevent that from happening, not to mention SK forces themselves.

              Taiwan is in the middle of building up their forces again, we have forces in the region ready and able to assist (posted there, again, specifically to deter Chinese aggression), and we have ally forces across southeast Asia, including Vietnam, New Zealand, and Australia, who are willing and able to come help if needed.

              Iran? Seriously? They’re still having trouble keeping a lid on their own populace last I checked. And if they “stir the pot” by aiding Palestine or Yemen…well, Israel has been looking for a good reason to simply wipe Iran from the map for the last several decades.

              • Neuromancer@lemm.ee
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                9 months ago

                NK invading SK would be roundly crushed in an afternoon by the carrier group posted there SPECIFICALLY to prevent that from happening, not to mention SK forces themselves.

                I would like to see which military war game has ever shown that. I have never seen that at all. Can you please show the citation for that since it contradicts everything I have ever read on the topic.

                aiwan is in the middle of building up their forces again, we have forces in the region ready and able to assist (posted there, again, specifically to deter Chinese aggression), and we have ally forces across southeast Asia, including Vietnam, New Zealand, and Australia, who are willing and able to come help if needed.

                We do not have a force large enough to fight China in the region while we are tied up in Ukraine. Vietnam is not going to war with China. New Zealand and Australia do not have a capable enough force to add much value. That is why they are asking the United States to build bases.