cross-posted from: https://lemmy.ml/post/12400033 (Thank you https://lemmy.ml/u/Kory !)
I first used Linux about 5 years ago (Ubuntu). Since then, I have tried quite a few distros:
Kali Linux (Use as a secondary)
Linux Mint (Used for a while)
Arch Linux (Could not install)
Tails (Use this often)
Qubes OS (Tried it twice, not ready yet)
Fedora (Current main)
For me, it has been incredibly difficult to find a properly privacy oriented Linux distro that also has ease of use. I really enjoy the GNOME desktop environment, and I am most familiar with Debian. My issue with Fedora is the lack of proper sandboxing, and it seems as though Qubes is the only one that really takes care in sandboxing apps.
Apologies if this is the wrong community for this question, I would be happy to move this post somewhere else. I’ve been anonymously viewing this community after the Rexodus, but this is my first time actually creating a post. Thank you!
UPDATE:
Thank you all so much for your feedback! The top recommended distro by far was SecureBlue, an atomic distro, so I will be trying that one. If that doesn’t work, I may try other atomic distros such as Fedora Atomic or Fedora Silverblue (I may have made an error in my understanding of those two, please correct my if I did!). EndeavourOS was also highly recommended, so if I’m not a fan of atomic distros I will be using that. To @[email protected], your suggestion for Linux Mint Debian Edition with GNOME sounds like a dream, so I may use it as a secondary for my laptop. Thank you all again for your help and support, and I hope this helps someone else too!
You could look into Atomic distros if you value sandboxing, such as Fedora Atomic or Vanilla OS. I don’t know much about the debian space as Arch was my first distro so I kinda ran before I crawled.
Thank you! How are Atomic distros different from “regular” ones?
Pretty much that to be honest, so all of your apps are flatpaks. The base system is also kinda sandboxed, it’s access is prohibited and instead you employ “layering”.
I use Fedora Atomic on my desktop and laptop so I’ll explain that one here. Atomic distros function off of Atomic transactions, which are a process form that can only successfully complete. If an Atomic transaction did fail, the entire transaction would be undone and reverted. This practically makes Atomic distros unbreakable. If an update fails, what update? Who said there was an update? No trace.
Obviously you can change the base system, as flatpak isn’t suitable for all apps. This is where that layering comes in I mentioned earlier. I use XFCE-Terminal, obviously not a great candidate for a flatpak. So to install a package normally (as if through DNF) you need to use a packge manager that deals in Atomic. Fedora Atomic ships with their tool called rpm-ostree. I don’t know quite how it works but I’m pretty sure it creates a branch of the current system (like Git) and installs the package there, then upon next boot you’ll use the new branch and the old one discarded. Doing this means that if the package failed to install, your system is unchanged.
Atomic distros are super cool and I can’t imagine not using one. They do so much that should’ve been done a loooong time ago. I highly recommend them. I have an unpublished blog post about my experience using Fedora Atomic that I’m more than happy to post here if you’d like.
I have an unpublished blog post about my experience using Fedora Atomic that I’m more than happy to post here if you’d like.
Sure! I would love to read it!
So I would like to ask a couple of questions:
Qubes OS (Tried it twice, not ready yet)
Is Qubes OS not ready yet for your intended workflow/usage? Or are you not ready to make the complete switch (yet)?
For me, it has been incredibly difficult to find a properly privacy oriented Linux distro that also has ease of use.
Unfortunately, in almost all cases, increased security/privacy is achieved through the loss of convenience. Therefore, you should ask yourself what the minimum level of security/privacy is that you absolutely require/need. How’s your threat model defined (if at all)?
My issue with Fedora is the lack of proper sandboxing, and it seems as though Qubes is the only one that really takes care in sandboxing apps.
I agree that there’s still a long road ahead until we have on Linux whatever is found on GrapheneOS or Qubes OS. I’m aware that you can technically utilize VMs on any distro, but the experience will not be as streamlined (nor as secure) as you may find on Qubes OS. But, Flatpak does offer some sandboxing. And while it may not be as powerful as you may want, and some apps may not utilize portals as they should. Still, it’s definitely worthwhile and perhaps the best we’ve got currently. Furthermore, bubblejail allows you to (relatively easily) utilize (some of) the technology that’s used to sandbox Flatpak apps for all your non-Flatpak apps. It can be found on Copr if you choose to stick to Fedora.
On that note, the maintainers of the aforementioned Copr package have built an interesting project for those that seek security-focused (or simply hardened) images of Fedora Atomic; (aptly named) secureblue. It’s still a relatively young project, but their innovations have definitely been noteworthy and it seems to have a bright future ahead.
While we’re in the vicinity of ‘hardened-for-you’-distros, we should mention Kicksecure. By contrast, this is a well-established distro by the people that also develop Whonix.
Without hearing your answers to my questions, I think these two are the primary candidates. Though sticking to Fedora ain’t a bad choice either.
Great questions! I’ll try to answer as best I can.
Is Qubes OS not ready yet for your intended workflow/usage? Or are you not ready to make the complete switch (yet)?
Qubes OS has a very steep learning curve due to its difficult usability, so the answer would be “both”. I am willing to tackle and overcome, but I’m not ready to put in that work yet, if at all.
Unfortunately, in almost all cases, increased security/privacy is achieved through the loss of convenience. Therefore, you should ask yourself what the minimum level of security/privacy is that you absolutely require/need. How’s your threat model defined (if at all)?
I have a really funny story regarding threat models. When I first got into privacy 2-3 years ago, I had the goal of getting as deep as I could (the “strictest threat model possible”) and work backwards to find out what I was willing to allow. I succeeded, but because I had gone too deep before I learned what a threat model was, I never made a clear threat model. I have a “subconscious” threat model. I have, over the past week, started working on answering the classic questions. I am trying to protect against “evil” corporations, and such, I must also protect myself against some low level government threats. My threat model “philosophy” is: I will not use a piece of software if it actively goes against me in terms of privacy. Windows, for example, is a pain to try to use while maintaining privacy.
You are the third person to recommend SecureBlue (I’ve been keeping track), and since it is a “Fedora Atomic spin” (Fedora Atomic as well as Atomic distros in general were also recommended three times each), I believe I will switch to it to see how it is. By the way, I love the mention of GrapheneOS, since that will eventually (finances be blessed) be my main mobile OS for the rest of my life. I wish there was a true “Linux alternative to GrapheneOS”.
Thank you for your elaborate answers!
Qubes OS has a very steep learning curve due to its difficult usability, so the answer would be “both”. I am willing to tackle and overcome, but I’m not ready to put in that work yet, if at all.
Qubes OS is definitely more involved than the average distro, so I can understand why you feel that way.
I have a really funny story regarding threat models. When I first got into privacy 2-3 years ago, I had the goal of getting as deep as I could (the “strictest threat model possible”) and work backwards to find out what I was willing to allow.
Hahaha 🤣, very relatable; I almost wanted to learn SELinux for hardening purposes. Thankfully, Qubes OS exists as my endgame, which deterred (most of) the motivation (and need) to comprehend SELinux in the first place.
I have a “subconscious” threat model. I have, over the past week, started working on answering the classic questions. I am trying to protect against “evil” corporations, and such, I must also protect myself against some low level government threats. My threat model “philosophy” is: I will not use a piece of software if it actively goes against me in terms of privacy. Windows, for example, is a pain to try to use while maintaining privacy.
We can work with that, though I kindly implore you to further work out your threat model. It will(/should) give you some peace of mind (or at least a security/privacy roadmap on which you can (slowly but steadily) work towards). If I would have to distill your philosophy, it would be something like “be protected from attacks targeted towards low(er) hanging fruit”. Would that be fair?
You are the third person to recommend SecureBlue (I’ve been keeping track), and since it is a “Fedora Atomic spin” (Fedora Atomic as well as Atomic distros in general were also recommended three times each), I believe I will switch to it to see how it is.
Great choice! FWIW, I’ve also been on it for a couple of weeks now and I’ve really been enjoying it. Before, I had my own custom image that was built using the (legacy-)template from uBlue. I tried to harden it myself 😅, and I would argue I did and achieved some cool stuff with it. But, it’s very clear that my technical knowledge doesn’t even come close to that of secureblue’s maintainers. I just wish I had rebased earlier 😅.
By the way, I love the mention of GrapheneOS, since that will eventually (finances be blessed) be my main mobile OS
I definitely agree with that sentiment. Btw, FWIW, I know for a fact that at least one individual that’s associated with GrapheneOS has ‘contributed’ to secureblue.
I wish there was a true “Linux alternative to GrapheneOS”.
Hehe, without going into what that actually means and would entail, I agree 😜.
If I would have to distill your philosophy, it would be something like “be protected from attacks targeted towards low(er) hanging fruit”. Would that be fair?
It may help for me to elaborate a bit. My number one enemy (like most) is Google. I have been completely Google free for 1-2 years now (with the exception of YouTube on iOS, as the alternatives ultimately require a Mac to install, which I don’t have), but I haven’t used Google as a search engine in over 4 years. Besides trying to give as little information as possible (I am currently experimenting with setting up a hard firewall block against their IP addresses, if you have any recommendations on how that could be automated, potentially in Python, please let me know), I also try to give as little information to other companies (Microsoft, etc.) as I can. Now, certain authorities have the permission to request data from companies, not just privacy disrespecting ones. That means that part of my threat model entails certain defenses against such agencies, to make it hard enough to correlate that data with my person. I don’t go overboard, in case anyone is worried. I’ve seen the bondage between paranoia and privacy, and I’ve set myself clear boundaries I won’t cross. So, my main goal is to protect against companies trying to collect my data (bleh, how cliche), but it doesn’t hurt to put in place some decent practices in case the world turns for the worst. I am protecting against attacks from the government towards low hanging fruit, but when it comes to large corporations, I don’t play nice.
If you want an overview of my setup, here it is:
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Tails occasionally (because it’s fun)
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SecureBlue (Soon!)
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Tor Browser when using personal accounts (email, Lemmy, etc.)
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ProtonVPN on all devices 24/7 except when using Tor (for speed) or large downloads/torrents (may look into Mullvad VPN)
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Mullvad browser as a default browser
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Librewolf for functionality Mullvad Browser doesn’t have (Yubikeys, etc.)
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Firefox for streaming some videos that require a specific DNS configuration (Soon looking into how to put an extreme sandbox on it)
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uBlock Origin for all browsers
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GrapheneOS (Soon, finances be blessed)
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ProtonMail + Anonaddy, use disposable emails for accounts that “don’t matter”
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Very, very strong and unique passwords + 2FA/FIDO for everything applicable
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As much FOSS software as I can
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Signal as my main messenger (to help bridge the gap for my friends) until GrapheneOS, then SimpleX (Please take a look at https://privacyspreadsheet.com/messaging-apps !)
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SearXNG as my main search engine (with Google turned on, because my threat model does not go against them collecting data not correlated with me)
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Bitwarden as my password manager until GrapheneOS, then KeePass
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NextDNS as my DNS resolver (which gets overridden by the VPN’s DNS on iOS)
I’ve come a long way since I first (unknowingly) started my journey in 2019(!)
My number one enemy (like most) is Google. I have been completely Google free for 1-2 years now (with the exception of YouTube on iOS, as the alternatives ultimately require a Mac to install, which I don’t have), but I haven’t used Google as a search engine in over 4 years. Besides trying to give as little information as possible
…
I also try to give as little information to other companies (Microsoft, etc.) as I can. Now, certain authorities have the permission to request data from companies, not just privacy disrespecting ones. That means that part of my threat model entails certain defenses against such agencies, to make it hard enough to correlate that data with my person. I don’t go overboard, in case anyone is worried. I’ve seen the bondage between paranoia and privacy, and I’ve set myself clear boundaries I won’t cross. So, my main goal is to protect against companies trying to collect my data (bleh, how cliche), but it doesn’t hurt to put in place some decent practices in case the world turns for the worst. I am protecting against attacks from the government towards low hanging fruit, but when it comes to large corporations, I don’t play nice.
Thank you for the elaborate clarification! But, perhaps I have to clarify as well; with "be protected from attacks targeted towards low(er) hanging fruit”, I actually meant any mass-surveillance, data collection and plain attacks from governments, corporations and adversaries that don’t qualify as a (more sophisticated) targeted attack.
SecureBlue (Soon!)
Great pick! 🤣
ProtonVPN on all devices 24/7 except when using Tor (for speed)
I don’t know the complete specifics of your threat model, but if you haven’t yet, then perhaps it’s worth reviewing what Privacy Guides has to say on this. Note, I don’t necessarily view them as the de facto authority, but more often than not, their views hold more truth than falsehood.
or large downloads/torrents
Vaild reason to (momentarily) not use Tor, but please consider to review Proton VPN on port forwarding in hopes of alleviating the issue of speed without foregoing the VPN connection.
(may look into Mullvad VPN)
Unfortunately, at least for torrents, you’re no longer able to rely on Mullvad VPN.
Firefox for streaming some videos that require a specific DNS configuration (Soon looking into how to put an extreme sandbox on it)
Easiest (and also one of the best options) is probably the use of a VM 😅.
ProtonMail + Anonaddy, use disposable emails for accounts that “don’t matter”
FWIW, since SimpleLogin has been acquired by Proton, there is merit in forsaking Anonaddy for SimpleLogin if decreasing the amount of trusted parties is desired. However, this comes at the cost at moving more into the the direction of putting all your eggs in one basket. So, ultimately, it’s your choice to make.
Very, very strong and unique passwords + 2FA/FIDO for everything applicable
I hope an offline password manager is involved to some capacity. FWIW, if you’re not doing it yet, you can always uniquely ‘salt’ every password.
Signal as my main messenger (to help bridge the gap for my friends) until GrapheneOS, then SimpleX (Please take a look at https://privacyspreadsheet.com/messaging-apps !)
I like that SimpleX is less platform-dependent. But it has been hard to let go of Briar. Do you happen to know how they currently fare against each other in security/privacy features (beyond what’s found on the linked spreadsheet)? FWIW, IT security expert Mike Kuketz’ review of SimpleX wasn’t quite raving. Which is in clear contrast to his review on Briar. Of course, substantial time has passed since, but his ‘non-approval’ is something what’s bothering me.
Bitwarden as my password manager until GrapheneOS, then KeePass
Ah, we’ve found the password manager, KeePass (be it DX/XC) is indeed excellent.
it’s worth reviewing what Privacy Guides has to say on this.
Interesting! Considering my threat model includes my ISP as an enemy, it would make sense for me to use a VPN behind Tor: However my threat model doesn’t care if my ISP knows I am using Tor, as it would only be collecting data uncorrelated with my activities. Although it could cause legal trouble if a presidential threat (for example) over Tor happened at the same time as my usage of Tor. The change I will make is this: I will resume my current usage until I am able to use a paid VPN plan to speed it up.
but please consider to review Proton VPN on port forwarding
See above, no paid plan yet ;)
Unfortunately, at least for torrents, you’re no longer able to rely on Mullvad VPN.
Bleh, and I was really beginning to like them for allowing cash payments!
Easiest (and also one of the best options) is probably the use of a VM 😅.
Fair, although didn’t GNOME Boxes have some sandboxing issues?
there is merit in forsaking Anonaddy for SimpleLogin if decreasing the amount of trusted parties is desired. However, this comes at the cost at moving more into the the direction of putting all your eggs in one basket.
I am using Anonaddy for that reason specifically, plus the severe lack of features in SimpleLogin’s free version.
I hope an offline password manager is involved to some capacity.
As mentioned, I will switch to KeePass soon. Some of my passwords are stored completely offline, however. Pen and paper never fails, I even dedicated a specific pen for it! On a related note, take a look at this
Do you happen to know how they currently fare against each other in security/privacy features (beyond what’s found on the linked spreadsheet)?
Once I get an Android phone, I will try out Briar (because I am obsessed with the idea). I personally reached out to SimpleX regarding the spreadsheet, and the response I received back outlined that SimpleX pads the encrypted messages both during transit and in cold storage, which they said a lot of other messengers don’t do. A comment on the original post for the spreadsheet mentions that the spreadsheet doesn’t outline which services route through Tor (which Briar does, of course). The spreadsheet is very thorough, and SimpleX is still a relatively young project, so I don’t have much I can say. I’ve tried using it on iOS, and my friend and I both agree it’s terrible to use sometimes due to lag and choppiness. I currently testflight the app, but still no change. Either way, if you want, you can use SimpleX’s built-in support chat if you want to reach out to the team yourself. They are very friendly and don’t talk like a CEO, but there can be delayed response.
Ah, we’ve found the password manager, KeePass (be it DX/XC) is indeed excellent.
Yep! One related note, KeePass on Tails is outdated for some reason. Have any idea why?
I also planned to add this to my original message: I have never once had a cellular provider, which to me has been the biggest privacy boost since burning Windows at the stake.
Fair, although didn’t GNOME Boxes have some sandboxing issues?
Could be; I simply don’t know. Do you recall the exact issue?
I even dedicated a specific pen for it!
Is it something fancy?
On a related note, take a look at this
TIL. It’s definitely neat. Thank you for that!
Once I get an Android phone, I will try out Briar (because I am obsessed with the idea). I personally reached out to SimpleX regarding the spreadsheet, and the response I received back outlined that SimpleX pads the encrypted messages both during transit and in cold storage, which they said a lot of other messengers don’t do. A comment on the original post for the spreadsheet mentions that the spreadsheet doesn’t outline which services route through Tor (which Briar does, of course). The spreadsheet is very thorough, and SimpleX is still a relatively young project, so I don’t have much I can say. I’ve tried using it on iOS, and my friend and I both agree it’s terrible to use sometimes due to lag and choppiness. I currently testflight the app, but still no change. Either way, if you want, you can use SimpleX’s built-in support chat if you want to reach out to the team yourself. They are very friendly and don’t talk like a CEO, but there can be delayed response.
Thanks for the elaborate answer!
One related note, KeePass on Tails is outdated for some reason. Have any idea why?
If I would have to guess, it’s probably because its respective package found in the repos of Debian is outdated. As Tails is based on Debian, it makes sense for them to continue to rely on Debian’s packages as is and only backport security updates. Unfortunately, most of the established distros that are known for taking security, privacy and anonymity very seriously (i.e. Kicksecure, Tails and Whonix) are based on Debian; known for being stable, hence older packages. The exception, Qubes OS, has Fedora 37 (which has gone EOL since last december) in dom0. Though, in Qubes OS’ defense, dom0 is (by default) not directly exposed to the network. And in general is just really fortified; I can’t imagine anyone but state level threat actors to get through that as long as one upholds best practices. Furthermore, the qubes are as modern as you’d want them to be. So, within those, the desired up to date packages can be acquired. Regardless, unsurprisingly, Qubes OS’ approach is (simply) strictly superior over the others.
I have never once had a cellular provider, which to me has been the biggest privacy boost since burning Windows at the stake.
Very interesting! Is it what’s elaborated upon in this video? If not, would you mind elaborating?
Do you recall the exact issue?
No, sorry. Some Reddit/Lemmy commenter.
Is it something fancy?
No, although invisible ink would be somewhat cool. Have any ideas for a “password pen”?
TIL. It’s definitely neat. Thank you for that!
No problem! :) You can also thank whoever on [email protected] posted it (I wish there was a search box…)
The exception, Qubes OS, has Fedora 37 (which has gone EOL since last december) in dom0
Yikes, any reason for that?
Is it what’s elaborated upon in this video? If not, would you mind elaborating?
More backstory time! I have never used a cellular carrier, and only watched that video about a month ago (because it didn’t exist prior). The first part of my life was spent electronicless (because kids really shouldn’t have phones… look at me now mom, I’m talking to strangers on the internet by routing through a global censorship circumvention network!). The next part was spent somewhat disconnected, only had access to a non mainstream social media (it has since been merged with another one made by the same company, and became paid. Capitalism.) through WiFi + never went out much. I then finally had unrestricted access, but still never went out much. Then I started to go out much more, and the places I went to didn’t have WiFi. That, in turn, led me to take up network hacking as a hobby. I never managed to hack the network in question (WPA2-E). Finally, I got my first job around the same time I learned about privacy. That meant I had the money to get a cell plan, but I had the knowledge to know why that was a bad idea.
It’s funny, my mother recently called me because she was stressing about trying to find me a carrier (apparently?) and started saying “Your sister offered to add you to her plan if-” and I told her “I don’t want a carrier, but thank you!” and she said “Oh… Well that solves that problem.” and looked very relieved.
Edit: I guess your question is asking ultimately why I don’t want a carrier, and it is due to the points that were also brought up in that video, yes.
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Qubes and opensuse are great for any VM needs. Not sure what the issue with privacy is exactly you can pretty much reconfigure any distro to be oriented the way you want it.
For me, it has been incredibly difficult to find a properly privacy oriented Linux distro that also has ease of use.
First of all, most distros already offer adequate privacy. It’ll always beat Windows or MacOS—that’s for sure.
Second, ease of use and privacy don’t go hand in hand. The more privacy you want the harder it gets to use. The reason I emphasised privacy is because it’s more anonymity at that point.
What is it you want? If it’s privacy you’re after you can’t go wrong with most distros and using FOSS. If it’s anonimity be prepared to make a ton of sacrifices. Have fun putting your laptop in a Faraday bag, routing all your traffic through Tor, visiting eepsites, disconnecting your webcam and microphone, only wiring money with Monero, and so forth.
My point is, there is no best of both worlds.
