“I solve practical problems. Like where all the necessary holes should be on passenger aircraft, and when they should appear.”
Calling it right now, it had little to do with the engineers and almost everything to do with corporate cost cutting at the expense of people.
They marginalized all the engineers and hired MBAs. If you want to blame someone, blame Wall Street.
If you want to blame someone, blame Wall Street.
I like how this sentence applies to like 90% of the problems in this world
Pretty much when an engineering thing goes wrong. It was because of managers and bureaucracy. It happened with NASA’s Challenger mission and this one is probably another incident like it. The engineers are the most technical, precise, accurate people ever. It is very rare that something catastrophic will go buy unnoticed.
Boeing lost all respect when they opend a production plant in North Carolina so they didn’t have to follow as strict labor laws as they do in WA. It’s no coincidence we’re seeing more groundings more frequently since then, company priorities on full display.
Fr. I think they’re trading on a lot of previously-earned good will that no longer accurately applies to the company today. The standards that made Boeing what they are simply aren’t the same today as when the reputation was built.
You don’t need to call it that. When designing the airplane they changed the location of the engines, which also changes how the airplane handles. Normally that would require retaining the pilots, but that’s expensive. So what they did is they solved it in software to emulator old behavior and didn’t tell it to the pilots.
What I find interesting is that in 2018 (one year before the crash) trump mentioned it if nowhere that there was no single plane crash during his presidency. Kind of crazy thing to mention, when we got used to planes generally not crashing.
I have feeling that around that time sometime graded his hand and he pulled some strings in FAA and forced them to approve it.
Another thing that makes me thing he was involved is that after the crashes, he started suggesting that Boeing should rebrand the plane to recover publicly. I mean, why does he care so much about that plane success if he was not involved with it in any way?
Ahh. A slight variation on the “just following orders” excuse.
That doesn’t work for “I was ordered to murder people through incompetence” any better than it works for “I was ordered to directly murder people.”
If you designed the part of the airplane that shouldn’t have a hole in it, and it suddenly develops a hole in it, that shit is your fault. Like, unless you blow the whistle. If you go to the FAA and the press, and you say “these fucking planes need to be grounded, because the suits insisted on a dangerous design,” then you’re kinda off the hook.
If nobody dies, that is.
But if you do some DEMONSTRABLY SHODDY AND DANGEROUS engineering work, sign off on it, take your fucking paycheck for that week, and then some people die? Well, in that case, you fucking murdered those people.
Capitalism needs fixing. Society needs fixing. All that is true. But people still have their own responsibility, when they act like fucking incompetent pieces of shit.
If you’re too stupid to be an engineer OR too spineless to be an engineer, fuck off from that profession. Period.
What, you think they just have the option to not sign off on it? What do you think the odds are them saying “hey this isn’t ready, we need more time” is gonna be met with anything other than being ignored or fired and the unfinished product being rolled out anyway? Blaming the engineers for corporate being cheap and lazy is ridiculous imo, I seriously doubt there’s much, if anything, they could’ve done to actually prevent this. Again, they’d be ignored or fired, meaning the problem is present no matter how “complicit” they were or not
What, you think they just have the option to not sign off on it?
Are they being held captive, by force?
If they’re being physically detained and/or threatened, that would reduce their responsibility. Possibly. Depending on the exact circumstances.
But if they’re not, then they absolutely CAN say “nope, I’m not doing that shit. Engineer this shit yourself, if you want to kill people. Someone can have a fine old time, trying to teach the CEO how to open the computer aided design software.” And then they should still go to the authorities and say “these guys are about to ship some deathtrap-ass planes.”
If your choices are literally get fired or kill people, yes, I do expect you to get fired rather than actively participate in murder. I am shocked that you somehow find a way to disagree.
Oo what a tough and morally pure person you are, you would simply prevent everyone from dying if you were in their position. You don’t sound any less ridiculous than a keyboard warrior saying if you were in Nazi Germany you would’ve just joined the resistance xD just admit you don’t know jack shit about what you’re talking about (or provide some credentials that you’re an engineer, then maybe I’d take you slightly seriously)
“If I refuse to build a deathtrap, they’ll just get someone else to do it, so I might as well get paid to murder people.”
That’s your fucking concept of ethics? Really?
And you go ahead and bring up nazi Germany. It disturbs me that you’re also basically saying “well, we all know that most people totally will just go along with sanctioned murder.” Maybe it’s true, but I’m condemning that truth. You’re just accepting it. Almost cheering it.
My dude, the basic standard for humanity IS supposed to be “no, I won’t participate in murder.” I don’t have to build a time machine to condemn people who went along with the fucking nazis and I don’t have to show you an engineering degree to say that ENGINEERS ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR UPHOLDING THE BASIC ETHICS OF THEIR PROFESSION.
Yes, I will demand ethical behavior. I WILL judge anyone who fails to uphold the most basic and simple ethical principles. I will not just throw my hands up and say “whattayagonnado? It was the corpos that killed all those people. Don’t even worry about it, engineer guy. You probably did your best, as far as I know.”
Fuck that attitude. Like I said, the CEOs can’t design the fucking aircraft themselves. If all the engineers refuse to make deathtraps, then there won’t be deathtraps. Once again, it’s called fucking responsibility. No two ways about it.
EDIT: It is MESSED UP that I’m this many replies deep into this conversation, and I’m not seeing anyone chiming in to say “yeah, I’m an engineer, and I do think we have a responsibility to uphold basic ethics.”
Instead, I’m just getting downvoted and casually insulted by edgelords, who think they “kn0w H0w teH r3al w0Rld w3rks”
Professional ethics and standards are a thing. I am categorically NOT the weirdo, here. Can an engineer PLEASE back me up, on this?
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Someday maybe people won’t use attractiveness as a symbol for intelligence and morals, but not today…
Oh, this is about shoddy craftsmanship. I thought it was about that other thing boing engineers like to do
If you want to know what Boeing engineers are REALLY like just google Mr. Hands (please dont)
More like messing with horses.
