this entire thing reads like a fantasy. or some reddit thread where “everyone clapped” to me.
if I was told by a professor on the first day of class which I paid for that I wasn’t allowed to use my own note taking method I had been using for decades, I’d just say “No.” and if pressed further, I’d take it as high as I needed to. or get a full refund for the class and find another.
this isn’t an elementary school. these aren’t children. these are adults.
“I paid for it” isn’t an excuse to do whatever you want.
Why wouldn’t it? If you’re not bothering others, you should be free to piss your money away.
Because your enrollment in a class is not without consequence. If you are doing poorly due to being distracted by your phone, you are creating harm for other students and the lecturer/professor. Thinking that you are free to behave however you wish just because you are the customer is an extremely consumer-minded Karen-esque mindset.
How are you harming the other people in the class? I’m assuming here that you’re being reasonably discrete, have the volume off (or have ear buds in), etc. You not paying attention doesn’t really harm anyone else.
Think of it this way … if you sign up at a karate dojo, there are a ton of rules and norms you’ll need to follow. And those rules and norms will be very different dojo to dojo. That’s an understood expectation. It’s similar to college. The professor is empowered to dictate the structure and norms of their course.
And sure… The professor will dictate their expectations on day 1. If you don’t like the structure, you have 2 weeks to change the course with no penalty.
Lower class participation, impact on grading curves, and distracting behavior all have an effect on others.
Did you read anything past the first paragraph?
read the entire article yesterday, yes. how can i help?
Yeah, your comment doesn’t make any sense. You said that the whole thing reads like a fantasy when he backs it up with studies.
no I meant the expectation that people will just comply without complaint. especially if its not been stated otherwise in the lesson plan or syllabus.
this guy makes it seem like he magically was able to charm people into not using their laptops. and then wrote praises to him for such a thing, and quite frankly I’m certain all of that is embellishment.
I’m all for being more productive in classrooms, but banning note taking methods that quite a few people rely on is just silly.
if people want to join classes where note taking is analog only, that’s great and I encourage it. but let me know its that way ahead of time so I don’t waste my time having to get a refund for the course.
Depends on the class. Pretty unreasonable in a 200+ lecture hall, but a respected professor setting up a small seminar like this to remove distractions sounds like a fair prerogative to create an environment conducive to learning.
Ofc if a student asked for a reasonable accommodation that’s probably chill too.
I disagree that writing by hand is magically improving information absorbtion/retention. Source: I’ve been doing it through all of my school and all of my uni. Being half-asleep, pondering something completely irrelevant, and in general course material flying completely over my head while I write it down was a norm most of the time. And lecturers dictating their stuff at high speeds didn’t help either. Maybe there is some temporary novelty effect after you switch from one way of writing to another, but I wouldn’t expect that last long.
The more muscles and senses you engage in learning the better you will retain the information.
One method is not necessarily the best for everyone, but studies show that writing notes by javd does improve retention.
I’ve found typing works extremely well for everything but math. I type everything out as they speak, but horribly, with zero respect to grammar or spelling, just get the information down. Then, I go back afterwards and fix it all, and in doing so, reinforcing my learning. Its hard to do, because it had to be written well enough for me to be able to understand my chicken scratch later, but damn, it helps.
If you’re going back and fixing it, you’re getting that absorption the article is referring to. If you’re not referring to your notes ever again, handwriting is better because it forces that absorption to happen (i.e. you need to summarize). If you want all of the content, just watch the recording.
No one that has looked at this in a serious way agrees with you.
From the abstract:
“These results suggest that the movements involved in handwriting allow a greater memorization of new words. The advantage of handwriting over typing might also be caused by a more positive mood during learning. Finally, our results show that handwriting with a digital pen and tablet can increase the ability to learn compared with keyboard typing once the individuals are accustomed to it.”
I don’t buy it. I think the method they used worked, but I don’t think the blanket statement is fair. My handwriting sucks, and writing quickly for more than a few minutes hurts my hands.
Handwriting sucking is irrelevant. You don’t need to read it afterward to get the benefits the study is talking about. The point of handwriting is that you need to process and summarize the information.
If you review the information later, the difference between the two will be negligible.
I personally almost never review lecture notes and instead go to the textbook. Professors can make mistakes, books are usually more accurate, but a lecture is more interactive so both have value. But I definitely prefer the text over my notes regardless.
What we did in school and uni never required processing and summarizing anything. Teacher/lecturer would simply dictate and we had to write down anything that what explicitly preceded by “write this down”. I’d agree processing and summarizing helps with learning, but that’s totally irrelevant and doesn’t have anything to do with writing,
I’m pretty sure that writing something down has been proven to be helpful for retaining the information.
But that study is probably 50 years old, and people learn and retain information differently.
So I wouldn’t be surprised if using a computer to take notes is just as effective as writing it, especially for younger generations.
See my comment to OP for a recentish publication that shows the same thing all studies previously have shown. You are quite correct.
I switched from using paper notebooks to take lecture notes to using a computer for most classes around 2nd year of college and it was about the same. I mostly used the notes for spaced repetition when going over the material again a week or so after the lecture and helped keep my focus on the material during the lectures. It’s also easier to share notes with a study group if they’re already digital.
Your review process is making the difference here. Handwriting vs computer notes is looking at the difference without reviewing the notes afterward.
I don’t care. Mostly because we already have examples of what classes were like without them and the people who are reliant on them now will adapt and learn to cope if they’re taken away.
Additionally, people only think about what phones could be used for in class that they’d disapprove of, rather than things it might actually be useful for. I’ve personally had great success with recording lessons/lectures, and being able to refer back to them. This allowed me to ask more questions and take more time to understand the subject. Taking photos of diagrams? Awesome. Having a note document that I could reformat that was legible? Awesome.
I’m getting old, but when I retire, I’m going to go to as many free post secondary classes as I’m able, having never been to pist secondary, and never being a good student (I was mediocre at best and was smart enough to pass, without doing much of the work. I do not recommend or endorse being me as I was in school)
I really am curious what and how people use modern devices to great effect for studying/learning.
The world is so much different than in my youth it fascinates me what modern good study habits exist now. Like what’s the modern equivalent to flash cards? There has be something technologically amazing right? Even if it’s not well known to be widely adopted.
Studying, in its base form, follows these steps:
-take in the information
-record the information
-review the information you’ve recorded in chunks. Best practice is to review your newly recorded information at the end of the session, and at the start of the next session review old information. If you can review ALL your recorded information on a subject at the start of a new session that’s best - at first it’s slow but as you review a couple times you’re skimming or skipping most of it and only focus on the parts that you have trouble retaining.
With that being said, the ways we prefer to TAKE IN and RECORD information vary between people, but the overall concept does not.
In terms of flash cards, they’re great for memorization. That has not changed - it’s a base way to record and review information.
A modern version of this applies the base method but digitizes it. Anki is a very good and popular modern flash card app/program
-you can make flash cards with text, but also audio, images, and video
-you can save decks and sync them across all devices and share/upload decks
-it’s “smart.” If you spend more time struggling to answer a card, or get it wrong, it’ll show it to you more frequently. The reverse is true if you get it right every time quickly, you see it much less frequently
-it can nag you to study. You can set it up to notify you every hour, day, whatever and thrust 10-1000 cards in your face, whatever you set it to.
-tons of ways to configure it so it meets your specific needs.
So, that’s how things have modernized, for flash cards at least. But plenty of people still buy 3x5 index cards and keep a physical deck if that’s what they prefer. Again, the method isn’t as important as the process of receive/record/review.
Personally I like to use an e-ink handwriting tablet for in person note taking (all the benefits of paper/handwriting without the fuss of paper, plus lots of other features like cut/paste, linking/bookmarking items, etc) and I prefer typing into a word document when I’m studying from a book. The word document is very clean and I can use structured outlining formatting as well as a quick Ctrl+f to find terms I’ve written about. But whether it’s e-ink tablet or word doc, the base method is the same as when I was younger and it was all paper.
I think phones have their uses but they are awful for note taking. The fastest texter is much slower than writing by hand or typing, and you are so, so much more limited in underlining, highlighting, little symbols, positioning text in weird ways to symbolize things, etc. I don’t advocate that people use them unless they’re in a bind and have nothing else, but a lot of kids grow up these days and that’s their go to method because of familiarity, and we shouldn’t encourage that because it’s flat worse. However, phones can do great things such as record/transcribe, photos, videos etc - so they’re a great addition to the toolbox, but they’re not a NOTE TAKING replacement unless they’re a stylus/handwriting type, and even those are a poor cousin to a dedicated device for the purpose, but they can be a more affordable/versatile/portable version. My note writer was about $500 and that’s a lot of cheese but it was worth every penny to me because of how I use it.
One thing that worked for me was recording the lesson so that I didn’t necessarily have to take notes right away and could absorb more information being told to me, have time to think about that information and ask questions in the moment. Then I could go home, re-listen to the lecture, write out some notes, and then fine tune those notes by reading the source material and other learning aids. This worked better for me especially having ADHD than trying to write notes and missing parts of the lecture as a result. Being able to take photos of the board was also useful, especially when diagrams and or visual information was being relayed.
I do think it’s important to experiment with what you have available and find strategies that work for you. Not everyone learns the same way.
I exclusively wrote everything down with a pen, since I was not going to bring a laptop everywhere and somehow get it to stay powered for so many hours. Not to mention that it would have been terrible to draw schematics etc.
The best were those courses where you could prepare a “cheat sheet”, so then I go over everything and put key information and formulas into a word document. So I go over my notes, then have to filter them and then write the key things again. Maximum retention, as I can tell you 10 years later.
and somehow get it to stay powered for so many hours.
You can plug it into an outlet to power it.
In most of the classrooms I’ve been to, there’s like one outlet for every 10 people. That’s not a reliable option, especially if you pack classes back to back like I did.
Ah thank you, why did I not think of that easy solution? I always power it via my hamster at home.
(I posted this comment in the other thread as well)
I banned all cellphones and computer-based note taking in the classroom, with the exception that students could use a device if they wrote with a stylus.
I get the cell phones, for most classes you won’t need to have it out aside from taking an occasional photo of diagrams.
However, I’ve always thought that it was silly to have this stance on computers. Not everyone has access to an iPad or nice Wacom device, nor stylus compatible software that matches their workflow / note-taking style. I tried a lot of them and never found one I liked.
The article cites that same decade-old paper, which suggests that handwritten notes have better retention. If you actually look at the paper, here is the design of the commonly cited study:
Students generally participated 2 at a time, though some completed the study alone. The room was preset with either laptops or notebooks, according to condition. Lectures were projected onto a screen at the front of the room. Participants were instructed to use their normal classroom note-taking strategy, because experimenters were interested in how information was actually recorded in class lectures. The experimenter left the room while the lecture played.
Next, participants were taken to a lab; they completed two 5-min distractor tasks and engaged in a taxing working memory task (viz., a reading span task; […]). At this point, approxi- mately 30 min had elapsed since the end of the lecture. Finally, participants responded to both factual-recall questions (e.g., “Approximately how many years ago did the Indus civilization exist?”) and conceptual-application questions (e.g., “How do Japan and Sweden differ in their approaches to equality within their societies?”) about the lecture and completed demographic measures.
The advantage of typed notes is being able to reformat the notes over time and to go back and fill in details after class. If students don’t get the opportunity to do that, then yes it makes sense that the more cognitively demanding method of taking notes would give better recall.
This also depends a lot on the type of course being taught, which I didn’t see when I skimmed the NYT article:
I’ve taught the same course to a class of undergraduate, M.B.A., medical and nursing students every year for over a decade
What’s true is that laptops can be distracting to other students around you if you are doing something else (ex. watching sports / e-sports was common). If profs want to reduce that without policing what people are doing in class, having a “laptop section” in a back corner of the classroom works nicely
I don’t know about you, but I rarely referred to my notes later. The lectures frequently corresponded to the textbook, so I’d review the textbook again in light of what the lecture covered.
For me, handwritten notes were much more effective than digital notes because I rarely actually used the notes and taking notes was more to keep my attention on the speaker than actually recording the lecture.
Everyone works differently of course, I’m just pointing out that my experience was close to what the studies measured.
Universities should issue students wiþ Remarkables. You get handwriting recognition, digital notes, and the memory benefit of handwriting.
$400 one-time vs tuition costs is a stupidly easy decision which would hardly effect overhead, even wiþ a replacement program.
I banned laptops in meetings except for presenters and facilitators. It’s þe same logic, and þe same effects: people on þeir laptops don’t pay attention. It’s measurable, regardless of what you want to personally believe. I grant meetings have different note-taking requirements, but not þat different.
You missed a thorn in your reply there in your first paragraph.
And as an aside, sprinkling them throughout your reply heavily reduces the impact of your message. It’s a decoding stumble for most English readers who look at word shapes when parsing sentences.
So while it might be your thang - or perhaps you’re Icelandic and they’re just leaking through - it’s probably better to stick with th if you want to get your point across.
Thumbs down for Remarkable. Dumb vendor lock-in with subscription fees and inability to easily transfer notes, no external app support, yet still retails close to iPad prices.
At that point, deploying locked down iPads is easier, cheaper, and offers more flexibility. Which is exactly what a lot of schools and universities already do.
What? I’ve had a Remarkable 2 for 5 years and never paid a subscription fee. It runs Linux, and you can ssh in and get at every bit of data you write on it. There is an OSS GUI app for connecting, on Linux, in AUR. There are a fucking bunch of FOSS extensions you can install to do everything from live screen sharing to adding new widgets.
The actual fuck are you taking about, because it isn’t Remarkable.
I owned a Remarkable and returned it because it is so frustrating.
Remarkable runs a scuffed version of Linux, which requires developers to release a separate version of whatever app they have. Although the selection is growing, it is paltry compared to offerings from a typical Android or iOS device.
Below is a list of so called “best” apps. No syncthing, no Obsidian, no Saber, etc. Multiple scuffed versions of Zotero that can’t do annotations.
https://github.com/reHackable/awesome-reMarkable
Even for the few custom apps available, these are all uninstalled and reset with every OS update.
If you don’t want to use the few third party cloud sync options, then Remarkable charges money for cloud sync.
https://remarkable.com/shop/connect/pricing
Remarkable’s notes are also stored in a proprietary format that cannot be read by other applications. Attempts to reverse engineer it are jank af.
https://github.com/akeil/rmtool
It it works for you, great 👍. But I cannot whole heartedly recommend it. Even if you love eInk, just grab an Android based one like Boox.
Supernotes are my preference. They are e-ink, and have an option for a smaller size than remarkables. Constant great software/firmware development, durable, and e-ink. Downside, if you care (I do not) is they’re b+w only.
Can side load android apps, they sync fine, work as e-reader, etc. Good stuff.
Remarkables are good I think but they have one foot in the digital artist niche and one in the note niche, whereas a supernote is firmly in the business/meeting/note niche.
Ex university prof here (instructor actually. Lowest monkey up the tree). Duuuh! No shit Sherlock!
My issue is that I type faster than I write. I think instead they should push for something like audio/memo recorders.
One of the points in the article described how being slower to hand write makes you think about what you write before doing so, which leaves you with more meaningful notes instead of a transcript.
I used to handwrite and record lectures, and listening to it back, it was amazing how much I had missed while writing stuff down.
I’m still in favor of handwriting because my notes were thoughtful and helpful, it was just eye opening how much more I heard the second time through.
Reading the textbook before class helps me pay attention to things I missed in the reading, and rereading it after class helps me recall stuff I ignored in my lecture notes. I have never found value in reviewing lectures, and my test scores were pretty good.
These were humanities classes, where I’d pick up some nuance in the lecture/ discussion i had missed. We had textbooks but there was a lot of stuff in the lectures that weren’t in the text.
That’s not how I take notes. I usually end up panicking that I’m not getting everything I want and ultimately give up. I do the same thing trying to take notes playing D&D to this day.
😂😂😂😂 I don’t think so . Just anxiety to have it back
if just the thought of being separated from your phone for 60 minutes gives you unbearable anxiety you might want to consider looking into addiction therapy.
