ISLAMABAD/WASHINGTON, May 8 (Reuters) - A top Chinese-made Pakistani fighter plane shot down at least two Indian military aircraft on Wednesday, two U.S. officials told Reuters, marking a major milestone for Beijing’s advanced fighter jet.

An Indian Air Force spokesperson said he had no comment when asked about the Reuters report.

  • nargis@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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    1 day ago

    Markaz Taiba, Muridke was NOT a mosque. It is a very well known terror hideout, even among international journalists. It was used to train Ajmal Kasab and David Headley for the 2008 attacks, which he confessed to in 2008. Osama Bin Laden himself paid for its construction. It was founded in 1988 and Lakhvi himself frequented it. How utterly ignorant you people are. Do some more research. Most Indians remember Kasab’s confession.

    In this book I argue that Lashkar’s evolution is informed by two defining dualities: the first is its identity as a militant outfit and as a missionary organization committed to promoting its interpretation of Ahl-e-Hadith Islam

    In 1984, Lakhvi broke away and formed a small Ahl-e-Hadith group of his own. A year later, Hafiz Mohammad Saeed and Zafar Iqbal, two teachers at the University of Engineering and Technology (Lahore) Pakistan, formed Jamaat-ul-Dawa [Organization for Preaching, or JuD]. This was a small missionary order primarily dedicated to preaching the tenets of Ahl-e-Hadith Islam as interpreted by its founders. Soon after, the two joined forces.

    (Source-Storming the World: the Story of Lashkar-e-Taiba, Tankel Stephen)

    Born in 1987 in Faridkot, Pakistan, Kasab dropped out of school thirteen years later to work as a laborer in his hometown. Within a year he left for Lahore, where he again worked as laborer for nearly five years. After quarreling with his father, Kasab struck out on his own. He landed a job in Jhelum city, north of Lahore. Unhappy with his meager income, Kasab quit in November 2007 and moved to Rawalpindi with a colleague named Muzaffar. A month later Kasab came upon Lashkar members collecting animal hides in the name of Jamaat-ul-Dawa during Eid al-Adha. He and Muzaffar obtained Lashkar’s office address and showed up declaring their desire to wage violent jihad. After giving their names, addresses and other details they were told to return the following morning with extra clothes, whereupon the two received 200 rupees for the bus trip to ‘a place called Marqas Taiyyaaba, Muridke’ where ‘LeT is having their training camp.’ Upon arrival there the two were promptly enrolled in Lashkar’s Daura-e-Suffa training.

    (Same source. The book was published in 2011. Daura-e-Suffa refers to religious training, according to the LeT’s interpretation of the Hadiths and the Quran.)

    The article you linked mentioned the seminary and classes. This is what it is.

    Life after the ban was not as easy for any of Pakistan’s jihadi groups as it had been beforehand. Fundraising, recruitment and training were restricted to different degrees for different outfits, but none got off scot-free if only because these activities could no longer be carried out as overtly as hitherto. However, the Musharraf regime had no plans to dismantle all of Pakistan’s proxies. As part of what has become known as Pakistan’s ‘double game,’ militant outfits were categorized as ‘good jihadis’ that were covertly supported for continued use as proxies and ‘bad jihadis’ that were cracked down on more harshly. This was not a purely binomial division. Assessments and treatment existed on a spectrum, meaning some ‘good jihadis’ were treated better than others and some ‘bad jihadis’ cracked down on more harshly. Categorization was based on the threats that a group posed to the state and the utility it continued to offer.

    ibid. Now look up ‘good Taliban’ and ‘bad Taliban’. The Pakistani establishment still follows the same protocol for terrorists today; kill the ones that are harmful to its interests, or if pressured enough, US interests and let the ones that act as a useful proxy against India to operate freely. Look up Sajad Mir, and how Pakistan denied he existed for many years, then said he died long ago, until he was suddenly declared alive in 2022 and convicted. A French anti-terrorism expert, Jean-Louis Bruguière, in his Some Things that I Wasn’t Able to Say has stated that the Pakistani army trained the militants in the LeT camps based on his interrogation of Sajad Mir’s French companion, Willy Brigiditte.

    Lashkar was the most reliable in Islamabad’s eyes and fared the best. To begin with, it benefited from stronger connections to Pakistan’s army, ISI and civil service than other groups. Several journalists pointed out that, in addition to having recruited retired army and ISI officers into its ranks, Lashkar members had family in the middle ranks of the army and various civilian security agencies. Thus, the group was better connected than any other militant out-fit.4 It also had no strong allegiance to the Taliban and therefore was viewed as less of a threat to the state. According to one former senior official in the Intelligence Bureau, the government ordered Lashkar not to side with the Taliban in the immediate aftermath of 9/11.When it complied, this reinforced the perception that it was an obedient and reliable proxy. Finally, Lashkar’s leadership shared Musharraf’s India-centric priorities and the group remained Pakistan’s most potent proxy. One Western diplomat stationed in Pakistan went so far as to suggest the Musharraf regime would have sacrificed the other outfits if necessary in order to protect Lashkar because of its utility against India.

    ibid.

    To quote my other comment on c/India:

    During the brutal Mumbai attacks, Pakistan denied all charges of complicity. India did everything ‘right’ - it gave a fair trial to Kasab, shared evidence with the international community and urged Pakistan to crack down on terror camps in their country. But what did Pakistan do? It denied that Kasab was a Pakistani national, denied that they had any such camps, banned journalists from going to Kasab’s village. It took years of investigation and coordination with the intelligence agencies of other countries to prove that ISI officials (which worked with the CIA during the Soviet-Afghan War) were complicit. David Headley (thanks America, you never fail to disappoint when creating terrorists) and Tahawuur Rana, masterminds of the attacks, provided the necessary clues.

    Pre-26/11 India and Pakistan had the warmest relations they’d had in years. Pakistan’s denial, and subsequent investigation, other terrorist attacks after this (there were many) by the same organisations changed everything.

    Sajad Mir, a man claimed by the Pakistani government to be a fantasy cooked up by India, was found to be a real person, one of the planners of the Mumbai attacks. The efforts of international journalists (https://www.propublica.org/article/the-man-behind-mumbai) proved his role. In fact, he had even planned a terrorist attack in Australia, and his fellow conspirator, a French terrorist whose name I don’t recall right now revealed that he was well known in the Pakistani Army and freely went into Pakistani Army bases which civilians typically aren’t allowed to go into, let alone know their location or members. This was when he and his buddy were training Lashker-e-Taiba. Is it so surprising that this genocidal army wouldn’t do anything about known terrorists, then?

    Pakistan’s army committed a genocide in living memory - the genocide of Bangladeshis. This is the state you’re defending, and the groups that have spawned from it, which provides cover to the worst scum if it serves their purposes.

    Anyway, onto Mir. Mir was declared dead after it was found that he wasn’t so imaginary after all. Pakistan shifted the goalposts - he died long ago, we don’t have to hand him over to India. Then, magically in 2022, he was brought back from the dead and convicted. A French magistrate said that he was a member of the Pakistani Army. He was the son of an officer, after all. Why did Pakistan lie and protect such men? Why did Pakistan’s ISI destroy key evidence in the trial? Why did the state withhold evidence if it has nothing to do with terrorists?

    Why are Lakhvi and Hafiz Saeed still chilling in Pakistan? They both have an Interpol red notice. Why is he roaming freely in the country and giving inflammatory speeches? Saeed said his party would be contesting elections in 2018. This is an anti-terrorist state? Yesterday, Masood Azhar said that his mosque and seminary were hit by the missile – why does he have a seminary and mosque to radicalise poor young men of Pakistan? Why does Pakistan take absolutely no action on terrorists except when said terrorists harm the army’s interests?

    To claim that the Pakistani state/army (the state has no real power; no PM has served their full term in Pakistan) and the terror apparatus are somehow separate entities flies in the face of evidence.

    This same government released Lakhvi in 2015 on bail, who was one of the founders of LeT. 7 years after the attacks. He was released, and is apparently given 3 five-year sentences. Why such leniency, and such convenient disappearance and reappearence?

    If you had been following the research after the 2008 Mumbai attacks, you wouldn’t be saying this. Also, Pakistan directly targeted the Golden Temple, the most famous Gurudwara in India. Funny how you didn’'t mention that. Honestly, read. Look up C. Christine Fair, and read her work about LeT. It wasn’t religiously motivated, it was against known terror bases. There is a list. https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/operation-sindoor-full-list-of-terrorist-camps-in-pakistan-pojk-targeted-by-indian-strikes/article69547986.ece with details about who was trained there, which attacks were carried out from there and when. You are literally years behind on the information–2008 and subsequent investigations have revealed quite a lot about LeT’s activities there.

    Also, the Pakistan Army just held a funeral for a UN designed terrorist there. At the innocent ‘mosque.’ While the Pakistan army continues shelling across Jammu, targeting schools, houses and civilian infrastructure, killing more civilians than armymen.

    • Lit@lemmy.world
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      23 hours ago

      Golden temple is also the largest free kitchen in the world, feeding many people. it is an extremely pure form of evil to attack the golden temple.

    • NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io
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      1 day ago

      So… uh… the mosque that was attacked was taken over by the government in 2019. There’s no reason to believe that the continuity you’re implying between its use in 2008 and 2025 exists.

      • nargis@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        1 day ago

        Wow. So you ignored the whole

        1. Shielding of Sajad Mir till 2022, despite official Pakistani government claims that he was dead.
        2. Historical denial of 2008 attacks for several years, despite Pakistani claims that they weren’t involved
        3. Lakhvi’s release in 2015, despite claims that 2008 terrorists were dealt with
        4. Pakistani army officials attending the funeral of known terrorists in the presence of UN designated terrorist, Hafiz Abdul Rauf, in 2025, despite claims that they don’t support terrorism
        5. Pakistan’s historical ‘good terrorist, bad terrorist’ double game, and evidence for its continuation today, despite claims that it doesn’t

        Well, here’s the thing. Masood Azhar, who had disappeared from intelligence agencies for nearly two years due to international pressure, resurfaced in the same Muridke camp on 30 November 2024 and gave a speech. Forgive me if I, or even academics like the ones above are sceptical of Pakistan’s claims of taking over that mosque. Also, work on your reading comprehension. There were several points you straight up ignored.

        • NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io
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          23 hours ago

          There were several points you straight up ignored.

          Yeah, because they’re all from before 2019 and therefore don’t counter the Pakistani government’s claim that they took over the camp in 2019.

          Forgive me if I, or even academics like the ones above are sceptical of Pakistan’s claims of taking over that mosque

          Fair enough, but I expect more than skepticism as justification for bombing what is ostensibly civilian infrastructure, and from what I know if India has evidence it remained in use as a terror camp after 2019 they haven’t provided it.

          Edit: I didn’t directly respond to your points this time either because while they do prove the Pakistani army is in bed with terrorists, they’re not proof that this particular camp is being used by terrorists. Civilian infrastructure (or what is claimed to be civilian infrastructure) shouldn’t be bombed based on vaguely related circumstantial evidence and vibes.

          • nargis@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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            22 hours ago

            The broader points were Pakistan’s habit of denial, which has continued till 2022. If they shielded Mir till 2022, why do you expect me to believe they aren’t shielding the Muridke camp either? I agree, India should provide evidence to the international community. But Pakistan shouldn’t be taken at its word.

            Not only that, Azhar gave a speech there after being reported missing for two years on, again, Nov. 30 2024, in Muridke. Three LeT members as of yesterday, 2025 were reported dead by Pakistan itself, and the Army attended their funerals and wrapped them in Pakistan flags and did their janaza in that very campus. This confirms the camp was active as of 2024 and terrorists were present when India struck that camp. Otherwise, why would those three LeT members die, if it was only civilian infrastructure? Why would Rauf lead the funeral at that camp, record it and upload it, if that very location did not have any terrorists? Why would Azhar feel secured enough to be right there and give a speech and record it, making it available to any journalist with an internet connection, in full view of his location? This is not ‘vibes’ based targeting. It’s cold, hard proof of the presence of known LeT members. That particular camp.

            • NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io
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              22 hours ago

              But Pakistan shouldn’t be taken at its word.

              Yeah I agree.

              Not only that, Azhar gave a speech there after being reported missing for two years on, again, Nov. 30 2024, in Muridke.

              Yeah that’s circumstantial evidence, which makes it slightly more likely but doesn’t prove that the camp was active in 2024.

              Otherwise, why would those three LeT members die, if it was only civilian infrastructure?

              Do you have a source for the claim that three LeT members died? Because the reporting I found said they were JuD members who lead prayers and acted as caretakers for the mosque, in which case that’s your answer for why they died in the strike. Also, if they were indeed LeT members, maybe because they were there for any other reason? I mean it has a mosque and a madrasa, places Muslims would want to go to for reasons other than to attack India.

              Why would Rauf lead the funeral at that camp, record it and upload it, if that very location did not have any terrorists?

              Why not? I’m not sure what exactly you wanted to happen here.

              Why would Azhar feel secured enough to be right there and give a speech and record it, making it available to any journalist with an internet connection, in full view of his location?

              Because he was confident nobody would turn him in? I don’t see the connection between this and Muridke being active.

              Everything you outlined here is, as I said, vaguely related circumstantial evidence that only serves as evidence if you’re already convinced Muridke was being used as a terrorist camp. You still need cold, hard evidence here, and I see none.

              • nargis@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                19 hours ago

                Why would an ordinary masjid host a well known, widely despised figure like Saeed? As far as I am aware, ordinary Pakistanis condemn Saeed for the Mumbai attacks.

                In 1984, Zaki-ur Rehman Lakhvi, currently on trial in Pakistan for his role in the 2008 Mumbai attacks, formed a small group of Ahl-e-Hadith Muslims from Pakistan to wage jihad against Soviets forces in Afghanistan. The Ahl-e-Hadith are Salafist in orientation, meaning they believe Muslims must return to a pure form of Islam and advocate emulating the Prophet Muhammad and his companions in all areas of life. A year later, Hafiz Mohammed Saeed and Zafar Iqbal, two teachers at the University of Engineering and Technology (Lahore) Pakistan, formed the Jamaat-ul-Dawa (Organization for Preaching, or JuD). This was a small missionary group primarily dedicated to preaching the tenets of Ahl-e-Hadith Islam. In 1986, Lakhvi merged his outfit with JuD to form LeT’s parent organization, the Markaz al-Dawa-wal-Irshad(Center for Preaching and Guidance, or MDI). The group had 17 original founders, Abdullah Azzam being the most famous of them. Azzam was Osama bin Laden’s first mentor and the man most responsible for the influx of foreign fighters into Afghanistan during the 1980s.

                From this paper https://web.archive.org/web/20110507114538/http://newamerica.net/sites/newamerica.net/files/policydocs/Tankel_LeT_0.pdf. JuD is a known front of Lashkar. The camp was for the purpose of Daura-e-Sufa, Daura-e-Aam and Khas are done elsewhere.

                Why not?

                If it was civilian infrastructure, why was the man leading the funeral a famous terrorist, and not a local religious cleric? And see, here’s the thing. If you join LeT, you are a terrorist. Doesn’t matter if you just go there to sweep the floors. And no, ordinary Muslims don’t go to mosques associated with global terror organisations. LeT is officially a banned organisation in Pakistan, and has a huge stigma among Pakistanis because of its involvement in the the 2000s, like the Mumbai attacks, Parliament attacks and Red Fort attacks. Why would Pakistanis go there when they have condemned the attacks and called them unislamic? If ISIS opened a mosque near you, and you knew it was frequented by famous ISIS members, would you go there every Friday? It’s not just a mosque, it is an LeT mosque that spreads LeT propaganda.

                Frankly, you’re just dismissing everything as coincidences. The original comment was in response to the article claiming that the mosque was an ordinary religious structure. I have successfully disproved that. I don’t work for the Indian intelligence agency. I’m sure they have far better proofs. Either way, I condemn this reactionary war. Neither side values the life of civilians and both sides are shit, not because what India targeted weren’t terrorist sites. Killing terrorists and destroying terror facilities doesn’t end terrorism, just postpone it on the short term. Actually cracking down on terror, preventing radicalisation, helping Kashmir, and acting against the bourgeois sponsors of global terror does. For this, Pakistan has to comply as well, and it isn’t likely to being a deeply reactionary bourgeois dictatorship. The end of LeT can only be accomplished by Pakistanis overthrowing its military government to establish a people’s republic and our own proletarians to do the same. But that is a far off fantasy, looking at the state of both the Pakistani and Indian people swayed by the PTI on one side and the various bourgeois nationalist governments on the other.

                • NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io
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                  19 hours ago

                  Why would an ordinary masjid host a well known, widely despised figure like Saeed?

                  Saeed? You mean Azhar?

                  If it was civilian infrastructure, why was the man leading the funeral a famous terrorist, and not a local religious cleric?

                  I have no idea, though I could think of a few reasons (including that the three people who would normally lead such a prayer are all dead).

                  If you join LeT, you are a terrorist. Doesn’t matter if you just go there to sweep the floors.

                  Yeah… no. According to Wikipedia,

                  The group conducts terrorists training camps and humanitarian work. Across Pakistan, the organisation runs 16 Islamic institutions, 135 secondary schools, an ambulance service, mobile clinics, blood banks and seminaries according to the South Asia Terrorism Portal

                  If everyone working in any of those activities is a terrorist, then by a similar logic all Indian government employees are affiliated with the Indian army and therefore valid military targets, “even if they’re there to sweep the floors”, because the Indian army is by far the biggest terrorist organization in Kashmir. If we reject that logic, then the three men who were killed in the strike are civilians who were affiliated with LeT’s peaceful wing. You can hate “indoctrination” all you want (if that’s indeed what they were doing); that still doesn’t make a building a valid military target. Unless you’d like Kashmiri militants to attack Kashmiri Hindu priests who advocate against separation from India.

                  The camp was for the purpose of Daura-e-Sufa, Daura-e-Aam and Khas are done elsewhere.

                  So for religious education with no combat purpose to speak of? That’s militant infrastructure? In that case any Indian schools are valid targets for Kashmir militants, because this logic goes both ways.

                  If ISIS opened a mosque near you, and you knew it was frequented by famous ISIS members, would you go there every Friday? It’s not just a mosque, it is an LeT mosque that spreads LeT propaganda.

                  Assuming the government takeover is just for show, which you haven’t provided concrete evidence for beyond speculation. that’s circular reasoning. Also, it’s entirely possible that LeT is condemned in most of Pakistan and still supported in Kashmir, especially since LeT is a lot more than a militant organization. I’d wager the people they aided in the Kashmir earthquake would be perfectly willing to go to their mosque, for example. It seems to me like you’re using excessively simplistic lines of thought to derive the conclusion you want.

                  Frankly, you’re just dismissing everything as coincidences.

                  Because everything you just mentioned works just as well as a coincidence as it would if your claim was correct. What you’ve outlined here, if charitably interpreted (or uncharitably depending on how you look at it) warrants a “hmm, maybe we should look into this further”, but doesn’t serve on its own as evidence that anything rocket-worthy was going on in Murikde.

                  I’m sure they have far better proofs.

                  Why do you trust the Indian army so much? Have you not considered the possibility that they simply don’t care, given that they’re taking orders from a known fascist?

                  • nargis@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                    16 hours ago

                    *Azhar. Yes, it’s a terrorist organisation. It is a UN designated terrorist organisation. If you’re calling ‘religious education’ given to men like Ajmal Kasab (he mentioned it in his confession) then I have nothing to say to you. The Indian army doesn’t tell people to kill Hindus, it employs both Hindus and Muslims. Indian schools don’t tell us to kill Muslims, this is some delusional shite.

      • This is fine🔥🐶☕🔥@lemmy.world
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        1 day ago

        Jaish-e-Muhhamad: "Maulana Masood Azhar, a UN-designated terrorist based in Pakistan, has announced that 10 members of his family and four close associates have been killed in India’s strike on the Subhan Allah Mosque in Bahawalpur, Pakistan.

        A statement issued on Wednesday by the militant group he heads - Jaish-e-Mohammed (JeM) - said that the deceased included his elder sister and her husband, his nephew and his wife, a niece, and five children from his family.

        The group also said that the strike killed three of Azhar’s close aides and the mother of one of them."

        https://www.bbc.com/news/live/cwyneele13qt?post=asset%3Adeb867d3-47b9-4faa-9079-d92027b3dcce#post

        Tell is again Modi himself ordered destruction of a random mosque in Pakistan for no reason.

        Modi is a fascist. He’s a megalomaniac. He is responsible for Gujarat riots. I fucking hate him.

        But that doesn’t mean I’m going to take pity on Pakistan and denounce how my country is responding to their aggression. Fuck Pakistan.

        • NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io
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          19 hours ago

          But that doesn’t mean I’m going to take pity on Pakistan and denounce how my country is responding to their aggression. Fuck Pakistan.

          I argued about the response to the massacre (which, by the way, hasn’t been conclusively linked to Pakistan so there’s no proof of “aggression”) with the other guy so you can just see that. Here I just wanna point out that no matter how accurate or justified the Indian response was, Modi will use this as an opportunity to curtail democracy and consolidate power further. Therefore, cheering on the strikes as “responding to aggression” is playing right into Modi’s hand. If you want to keep what little remains of your democratic rights you have to start pushing back on this now.

        • nargis@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          1 day ago

          Yeah, you’re right mate, but he’s talking specifically about the Muridke one. This one too, was evidently a terror base as confirmed by Azhar himself. Though it’s actually quite famous among journalists. Afaik, the one at Sawai Nala, Muzaffarabad was also involved in the 26/11 attack, from what I’ve read. Crazy how these people deny years of evidence collected by their own countries. Like, I’m just a normal person, not the intelligence agency and even I could recognise several camps based on reading foreign academic research on LeT and Pakistan. It’s kind of funny how well known they are, how often these names pop up in books and papers, including actual written propaganda, leaflets and magazines. It’s not some secret that only RAW knows about.