On one hand, fuck Musk. On the other hand, internet from space that can’t be blocked by governments is a net positive in my book.
Don’t forget that Musk is also the one who intentionally blocked paid service from Ukraine during a critical moment in the early days of Russia’s current genocide, because Musk sucks up to Putin. Dude needs to answer for his actions.
Yep, fuck Musk
Fuck Musk
Sounds like a French parfum.
Watch out they might actually launch it
actionscrimesSeriously, why hasn’t there been an investigation since he’s meddling directly with government affairs and working for a foreign enemy?
that depends on who controls the space internet
That is the catch. Ideally they wouldn’t automatically cooperate with the dictators on the ground, but that hasn’t been the case.
How about internet that can be blocked at the whims of a billionaire? At least government is supposed to answer to the people.
*Their lobbying shareholders and maybe the people that elected them
Dictatorships don’t answer to the people. It’s absolutely a problem that billionaires are controlling the flow of information, but it’s much worse for a dictator to do it.
Oh honey, do you really ignore that a huge chunk of dictatorships do it for the money and most are already billionaires? Why exactly do you think Musk supports the orange cheeto?
Because the orange Cheeto wants to cut his taxes so he gets more money. Dictators want power, not money. That’s why they are famous for blowing it on such exorbitant things. It’s just a means to an end. To billionaires the money is the end.
That’s an extremely naïve view of the world. If Musk could sit the chair, he would. What do you think the accumulation of unhinged amounts of wealth is about but increased power? What do you think those opulent displays of wealth from dictators is about but to flaunt that they have all the wealth and power?
Musk could easily buy himself a governorship or a senatorial position and work up from there. That’s not his goal. He wants to be the next Thomas Edison. He wants to be admired and remembered.
Dictator’s opulent displays of wealth are to stoke their egos. They don’t care about the money they spend because they just took it, they didn’t earn it. They care about how much control they have over the people around them. They don’t care if people like them ,only that they fear them.
Musk has already said he welcomes a chance to work in the Trump administration, so…
I don’t see a difference tbh.
Dictators do things like build and use rape rooms or throw people they don’t like out of helicopters.
You think that billionaires don’t do that? Have you heard of Harvey Epstein? Who do you think the biggest customers of child trafficking and sex slaves are?
I think you’ve conflated Jeffrey Epstein and Harvey Weinstein. Incidentally there is a Harvey Weinstein, but he is a progressive NY State legislator, not whatever either of those two fucks are.
Brazil’s not a dictatorship though and twitter is breaking their hate speech rules.
Musk is just as bad as most actual dictators with his global reach
Controlled by governments or controlled by corpos and the super rich? I say there’s hardly an improvement.
Yeah, cables or radio waves, it’s the same thing in the end.
What we need (IMO) is another layer on top if the classic internet with encryption and hookers.
Like i2p or TOR?
Or Tenfingers (my network protocol for decentralised web pages and data) ofc 😌
No, but through the existence of both options, you can get more plurality than by using one individual option.
Government can throw you in jail.
Corporate throws you on the street to starve.
They tried that with me once, but I showed them and got a different job.
You got another one job at the the other starlink?
There’s a reason the system requires a certain percentage of unemployment to keep working. There’s also a reason there’s homeless people and children living in flood security.
Have you heard about this corporation called the church of Latter Day Saints?
Oh? What about internet controlled by a billionaire who makes sure his toxic website featuring his version of “free speech” is always available to protect his profits and spread his bullshit while undermining the policies of a sovereign state?
So much better than the evil government.
That’s better than a dictator who only wants to protect his own power. At least a billionaire can be bought.
.
What the heck do you think a dictator is? A billionaire running a country.
I think there is a difference in mentality between people who chase power and people who chase money. Bull Gates certainly chases money, but he’s not trying to take over a country somewhere.
That may be so, but nonetheless they overlap often enough.
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Are you saying he is trying to take over the country by buying all the land? Seems like he’s just using land as an investment.
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A billionaire can’t be bought, they got billions. It’s the dictator that can be bought.
A billionaire chases what gets them the most money. The public can manipulate them by making them lose money. A dictator wants power, which really can only be countered with mass violence.
Musk has lost a tremendous amount of money between X and his negative effect on Tesla sales. Do you feel this has “manipulated” him into being a better person? 🤣
Even with all the losses, he is still the richest man in the world by more than $50 billion. Musk dumped more than half of his Tesla stock and is focusing more on SpaceX now.
Yes, that’s my point. Losing money didn’t “influence” him.
What if payments to Starlink are blocked by Brazilian government?
He is in a unique position, theoretically he can make everything go through the country his servers are in assuming they pay over their own satellite internet, illegal… mmm almost certainly but so is keeping Ex Twitter on in Brazil so he probably doesn’t care about that, and it’s essentially exactly what a VPN does sooo, oh yeah they could also just use a VPN I guess.
Bruh, VPN for what? If Brazil bans payments to Starlink, essentially sanctioning it, how is end user going to circumvent that?
I mean they can jump through hoops to convert currencies etc but most people would just give up and move on.
Paying with Bitcoin is less of a hoop to jump through than it used to be.
it can be (and has been) blocked by musk on occasion though.
Usually Gwen Shotwell, SpaceX COO, is good at keeping Elon in check and not screwing up SpaceX business. I wonder what happened this time.
This is the intersection of Xitter and SpaceX and it looks like Xitter takes priority.
If you can only access Xitter through SpaceX, can we call the combination “SpaceXitter”?
His ego is above all else
What i love about musk is that he is the best bad example. Maybe someday he’ll start a war with some country and then people will start to understand that no single person or group should hold this much power. Because there are also a handful of other people and groups with the same resources who choose to hide in the background.
The Corporate Wars. 🥲
Brazil has an extradition agreement with the United States. Would love to see that shit get put to use.
That’s not how extradition works. You have to give people up to the US criminal system. They don’t reciprocate. They just promise not to coup your government.
Why would the US strain their relationship with Brazil over Musk? Politically, it makes sense to extradite him.
Also imma need a citation on how extradition works, I searched the wiki and couldn’t find anything.
Why would the US strain their relationship with Brazil over Musk?
He’s in deep with the US financial sector and the MAGA GOP base.
I’m failing to see the connection with Brazil here.
What would the backlash be from the US financial sector?
Why would MAGA be mad about the US Government extraditing an African American?
What would the backlash be from the US financial sector?
Lobbyists would lean on federal and state legislators to impose retaliatory sanctions.
Why would MAGA be mad about the US Government extraditing an African American?
Because they see him as on their “team”.
So in your mind the possibility of Musk being extradited could lead to those colossal outcomes?
The starlink thing died yesterday but, I can’t imagine a reaction this strong from the US financial sector or MAGA.
I disagree with the intensity of this response, if it were to happen.
So in your mind the possibility of Musk being extradited could lead to those colossal outcomes?
In my mind he just doesn’t get extradited, because it’s too much trouble and sets a bad standard for American billionaires.
Politically I don’t think it makes sense to extradite him because politics is just money nowadays. If money weren’t in bed so thoroughly with politics I would agree but unfortunately here in america, bribery is legal and not looked down upon because we just decided to call it lobbying instead of bribing.
Extradition treaties are almost always reciprocal and this particular treaty is publicly available. No public treaty is going to include a promise not to coup another government because of the obvious political consequences of admitting you might to everyone else.
Extradition treaties are almost always reciprocal
In theory. But rarely in practice.
Remember that time Musk expressed that he was in favor of free speech? Then he censored content on his platform for the Turkish government?
Yes, then he got a bunch of backlash and now he’s doing the reverse. And people are losing their shit even more
Weird how he’s helping the far right in both cases.
- complying with Erdogan
- refusing to block fascists
Musk complies where his business lies. China, India, America, Europe…
Where there’s Tesla there’s Twitter regulation.
It bothers me that he is trying to protect nazis.
Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. People will find a reason to hate him.
I think he’s just a hypocrite who will say anything and contradict it when it’s better for him.
Have you ever seen his trans daughter who he disowned for being trans talk about him? He’s not a good dude. For years when I first heard of him I was tricked too. Look into him some more man. He’s a piece of shit.
Here’s some reasons:
Taking credit for other people 's work. I don’t think he actually founded any of the companies he owns besides the boring company. That hasn’t done anything right? Lol
Having emotional temper tantrums where he tries to ruin people’s lives, for example that diver he called a pedophile for no reason.
Again his hypocrisy around his political beliefs. For example how he champions “Free speech” but also will censor words like ‘cis’. It’s clear to me and many others that “free speech” to Elon just means people are free to say what Elon wants.
Personally I don’t give a shit about Musk. I don’t care about any celebrities but I try to not hate any of them because that’s way too much attention I’m giving to someone who is so insignificant to me. I’m just always aware of them from being on these social media sites because there’s always a legion of fans and haters. Maybe I’m really just complaining about social media and wish we were in the time of MySpace. Things were simple then and the internet was wild and untamed.
I mean you give enough of a shit to comment twice so 🤷♂️
I don’t think a multibillionaire is just a celebrity. The companies he owns and the power he has there aside, he also controls many politicians through lobbying deals.
I feel you on missing the days of the old web so I think you should know it’s tech billionaires like musk who have destroyed it. Whether through their direct control over platforms like Twitter or by how they have regulated the web through lobbying of our politicians.
They should kick his shit out of the country
how are people supposed to pay starlink if their accounts are frozen? is starlink offering free internet?
As the article says, yes.
W
As of 2024-09-03T22:10:25.545Z, Starlink is now complying with Brazil’s X ban [1].
References
- “Starlink says it will block X in Brazil”. Emma Roth. The Verge. Published: 2024-09-03T22:10:25.545Z. Accessed: 2024-09-04T04:17Z. https://www.theverge.com/2024/9/3/24235204/starlink-block-x-brazil-comply-elon-musk.
“We immediately initiated legal proceedings in the Brazilian Supreme Court explaining the gross illegality of this order and asking the Court to unfreeze our assets,” Starlink says in a post on X. “Regardless of the illegal treatment of Starlink in freezing of our assets, we are complying with the order to block access to X in Brazil.”
- “Starlink says it will block X in Brazil”. Emma Roth. The Verge. Published: 2024-09-03T22:10:25.545Z. Accessed: 2024-09-04T04:17Z. https://www.theverge.com/2024/9/3/24235204/starlink-block-x-brazil-comply-elon-musk.
If Starlink follows through on its reported vow to ignore the X ban, it is likely to face similar sanctions itself for ignoring a supreme court order.
That could have a big impact in the Brazilian Amazon, where Starlink antennae have spread rapidly since being made available in September 2022, bringing high-speed internet connection to far-flung regions. By the end of 2023 Starlink antennae were being used in more than 90% of the Amazon’s municipalities, according to BBC Brasil.
I mean are those people really going to be using Twitter anyway?
Gonna be funny when Brazil bans starlink too.
**Update, September 3, 5:15PM ET: **Starlink has reversed course on its decision to not comply with Brazil’s block of X.
That was fast.
Edit: Updated the title to reflect the update in the story. Seeing some comments from people who haven’t actually read the article.
This statement was later retracted. The Engadget article was redacted accordingly.
Do people here not generally dislike government censorship? The root of this seems to be x refusing the country’s government’s demands to ban certain people
Try typing the word “cisgender” into Twitter.
Don’t have or plan to get twitter, care to enlighten me?
That’s pretty disgusting
Well, they called it a slur. That’s good enough a reason.
That’s why I don’t like the idea of censoring slurs. Anything can be one.
If some chap at X, determining which word is considered a slur, says, “I watched a YouTube video with <public personality> telling someone else not to call them ‘cisgender’.”, that’s probably good enough to add it to the list, while most of them not actually matching the dictionary definition for “slur”.The point comes as to where to draw the line and the company gets to choose.
It’s not a slur, is the thing. Not any more than “transgender” is and, in fact, less so.
They know this but they are pretending otherwise, as if Elongated Muskrat were a power mad 1990s forum moderator.
pretending otherwise
Welcome to modern society. Everybody loves to pretend.
The people pretending to be offended by some random mistaken word uttered by another.
Those pretending to care about something that they are using “politically correct” words for.
Microsoft pretending to care about OSS, in the hopes of getting some highly performant devs.
…Yes, it’s not a slur. But someone told another person to not call them a “cis woman” on camera and now it is whatever, you call it.
The thing is, I dislike censorship in general. Corporate or government. Yes it’s the corp’s prerogative, but we’re allowed to criticize corporate censorship and hypocrisy regarding censorship.
I don’t get why people defend censorship by powerful/monopolistic companies run by billionaires while criticizing censorship by the government. They’re not that different.
My personal opinion is that for “edge cases” like cisgender, I should be the one who decides what “slurs” I see or don’t see on the feed, rather than some shmuck twitter mod who watched a YouTube video or whatever.
I mean it’s still not an edge case. It’s just not.
Like, insert that “That’s not how this works, that isn’t how any of this works” meme here.
I don’t get why people defend censorship by powerful/monopolistic companies
I won’t get that either.
But unlike the Government, which is at least, supposed to care about us when making their policies,
the companies don’t. Whatever gets them more money[1] is what wins.Well, said companies will realise in time[2] when it hurts them where they care about and will have to consider changing stances.
X doesn’t seem to have any issue censoring accounts for Musk’s autocratic buddies like Erdogan, so let’s not try and pretend that he’s above caving in to government censorship. He’s just pissed off in this case that he’s being asked to do it in a way that would hurt his friends in Brazil. The site has been called out over the last several years multiple times for refusing to take any steps to moderate misinformation spread by Bolsonaro and his political allies in attempts to undermine democracy and influence the results of the last election, like the endless claims of electronic voting being insecure in the lead up to the last elections, Bolsonaro’s COVID denialism and many other examples.
Absolutely not trying to take the side of musk here, dude’s a shitter. Fact of the matter remains the government in this case is using its power to remove people from the public eye, I would dislike that regardless of what platform or who was refusing to do it
the government in this case is using its power to remove people from the public eye
These aren’t people, they’re accounts. And the accounts in question appear to have been coordinating the attack on the Brazilian congressional office in 2023. This is comparable to, say, the traffic on Parlor shortly before the J6 riot in the US.
Organized violence would not be tolerated as “free speech” in Brazil or the US. No government or civilian authority considers active insurrection a protected category of speech. These accounts were effectively coordinating a military coup. They weren’t just trash talking the new President and his party.
Blocking traffic from an enemy military force is a military response to a rival military operation. And Musk’s refusal to shut the accounts down amounts to taking a side in a military campaign.
Is it from a foreign country trying to take over? In which case that does change things, had assumed this was some kind of revolution from within the country
Is it though? Refusing to take a side isn’t the same as taking a side. You should never be obligated to remove content the government doesn’t like, you should merely be required to provide data about accounts to local authorities to assist in investigations. If someone is posting illegal content, they should be accountable to the law, but it should always be the host’s discretion whether to remove that content.
Refusing to take a side isn’t the same as taking a side.
He’s been outspoken in his support for the Bolsonaro movement
And that’s fine, and I certainly disagree with Musk on that. However, it’s only an issue if the platform discriminates content due to that bias.
It is well established that the right to free speech is NOT unlimited, and the “fire in a crowded theater” people tend to be the loudest complainers. Brazil is a sovereign nation entitled to its own interpretation of how to handle free speech protections, and X has repeatedly made the claim they obey the laws of the countries in which it operates.
Also, it’s disingenuous of anybody to take X’s side on this over free speech when the past two years they have complied with basically every single request from every government for personal identifying information for any user. People are serving multi-decade prison sentences for their speech because X has refused to stand up to, for example, the government of Saudi Arabia when demanding the identities of state critics.
So it’s okay to kowtow to governments when they want to violate the right to privacy, but not when they want to shut down speech which is outside a sovereign nation’s definition of free speech? And let’s be clear - we were talking about 7 users.
You can’t have it both ways. You can’t say it’s reasonable for a company to violate ONE right for a government under absolutely unethical circumstances and not another under SLIGHTLY debatable circumstances and expect anybody to take your position seriously. X is not a freedom fighter, and it’s not an actor for justice. It’s a partisan cesspool run by a man who is stacking the deck for the side he wants when it serves his interests.
I’m by no means defending musk or X. I think they shouldn’t have banned those users and also think they shouldn’t have revealed info about users who are not actively threatening to hurt someone
My statement was that in general it concerns me that governments are able to silence anybody in this way, which is where federation comes in handy
You make it seem like this is an epidemic of silencing.
First of all, this was 7 users. Secondly, it was such a controversial request that it had to be escalated all the way to the country’s Supreme Court. Thirdly, the request and its consequences were then reevaluated, and all 5 members of the Supreme Court review unanimously upheld the decision.
There’s obviously no such thing as a perfect system, but that is about as close to a fair review process as one can get, and I would argue it’s better than the alternatives of “the whims of the platform owner” or “completely unmoderated anarchy”.
Furthermore, they’re NOT silenced. This is deplatforming. Absolutely NOTHING is stopping these 7 people from setting up their own Mastodon instances and writing whatever they want. That’s not an option for the jailed dissidents X turned over.
Lastly, Brazil is a sovereign democratic nation within its rights to enforce its laws as it sees fit within its borders, and if the people find it that egregious they can change their leaders. X is an unaccountable cudgel of a single man who is taking it upon himself to conduct his own judicial review of the laws of a sovereign nation and act with impunity. If he were a nation, this would be an act of war. The sheer gall of it is utterly appalling.
Is this another country using x to recruit people for their takeover or people from inside the country?
I’m going to assume it’s from within otherwise it’s a moot point and they should obviously be blocked
However I would argue that speaking out against the government is the most important thing to protect, that’s kinda the whole point it exists
If they’re threatening/planning violent crime out in the open they’re pretty dumb and makes it easy for the country to arrest them for it once they have enough evidence they’re actually planning to do it, banning them off social media is not the solution imo
Again, as I said I’m not in any way endorsing X or saying it’s a freedom fighter, not saying they haven’t done terrible anti freedom of speech things, just that this kind of behaviour from governments towards any social media platform would concern me
Well, you are forgetting another category, which is incitement to violence. That falls under the same blanket speech as the aforementioned “yelling fire in a crowded theater”, and in 2024, the law is far, far behind the danger that this poses in most countries, limiting most governments in many cases to trying to stop each individual act inspired by the source rather than being able to go after the source directly. Someone does not have to directly commit violence to be responsible for it, and while I COMPLETELY agree with you that this IS a slippery slope that COULD be abused, in this case, the entire process is transparent and public with multiple exhausted avenues for appeal, and in the end, it doesn’t even SILENCE the users in question OR request they change their speech or ideas, it simply denies them access to a particular platform. As to the banning of X, even if you disagree with the particular banning of these 7 accounts, the removal from the country isn’t so much about free speech element as the idea that X has made it clear and public that they have no intention of obeying the law in Brazil, and it’s unquestioned that there ARE times when it is absolutely clear that a government SHOULD have the right to shut down information. What if X had a post next week giving Lula’s location, itinerary, security details, and clear lines of sight at a rally, and the government demanded legally that it be taken down? X has shown that if it disagrees with the legal judgement that this information should be taken down, they may refuse. It is totally reasonable for the Brazilian government NOT to accommodate the platform given its stance.
You know what you make a good point, I suppose if there’s been appropriate chance for people to stop it from happening it’s fair enough
We don’t dislike government censorship of CSAM. it’s all a spectrum based on the legitimacy of the government order and the legitimacy of the tech billionaire’s refusal to abide.
Honestly, while I think CSAM is disgusting, I am kind of against government censorship of it. Some go so far as to ban anything resembling CSAM, including imagery that looks like it, but doesn’t actually involve a real child. The problem is the abuse required to create it, but if that abuse didn’t happen, there is no crime, and it should therefore be completely legal.
The same goes with free speech more broadly. The speech itself should never be illegal, but it should be usable as evidence of another crime. A threat of violence is the crime, and that should be prosecuted, but that shouldn’t mean the government should force the host to censor the speech, that should be at the host’s discretion. What the government can do is subpoena information relevant to the investigation, but IMO it shouldn’t compel any entity to remove content.
That said, Brazilian law isn’t the same as US law, and X and Space X should respect the laws of all of the countries in which they operate.
That’s…actually a pretty reasonable take. Fuck Musk, but you’ve convinced me that government censorship is just a bad thing in general and that should apply to Musk as much as anyone else.
I do think there’s a counter argument to be made that the resources involved in setting up fake accounts to spread bullshit are trivial compared to the resources required to track down and prosecute account owners for crimes, so in a practical sense banning accounts is possibly the only thing one can do (especially if the account owners are foreign). If you give lies the same freedom as truth, you tend to end up with 10 lies for every truth.
Op’s take is not reasonable imo- if you think threats are harmful enough to prosecute they should also be harmful enough to censor.
Maybe a more soft form of censorship, such as hiding them behind a cw and a “user was vanned for this post” label rather than outright removal, but you can’t just do nothing.
Prosecution implies a trial before punishment. Censorship is immediate punishment based solely on the judgment of the authorities. That’s not a minor difference.
Exactly. If a judge states that an individual is no longer allowed on SM, then I absolutely understand banning the account and removing their posts. However, until justice has been served, it’s 100% the platform’s call, and I think platforms should err on the side of allowing speech.
I realize I’m jumping back and forth between sides here, but that’s because it’s a complex problem and I haven’t made my mind up. But that said, to return to the previous point…if you need a court order to ban every spammer and troll, you’ll drown in spam and propaganda. The legal system can’t keep up.
I’m willing to bet the people that government wanted were not infact posting CSAM, I’m pretty sure even x would ban them of its own volition pretty quickly if they were doing that
They weren’t, it was just the example at the furthest end of the spectrum. But your framing of “if it was REALLY bad, Twitter would ban it” can not be the solution. We have legitimate governments tasked with governing based on the will of the people, it’s not better to just let Elon Musk or Mark Zuckerberg decide the law.
They would ban it if was really bad because it’s illegal for that stuff to exist and they will face much more serious issues as a company if they don’t remove it, they’re not doing it out of the goodness of they’re hearts
Also not a good look for a company to be hosting that stuff in general for their PR, which is determined entirely by the general population’s reaction to their actions and not a small group of individuals in powerful positions
So Nazi’s eh? I hate Nazi’s. Let’s unravel this knotted beast a bit. If the Brazilian citizens are posting illegal content, arrest them. Forcefully cut off their internet, -snip snip- done, seize their bank accounts, works on Russia. It should never be the job of a privately owned corporation to enforce the law when the law is perfectly capable of neutralizing the offending entities and enforcing the rules it’s own damn self, are they going to make it illegal for Walmart to sell them a cell phone? Couldn’t they just create a new account with a new email over VPN? Wouldn’t it be easier if the citizens are breaking the law to arrest them rather than take away their Twitter account? I am not a fan of that fat musky sum bitch, but there is literally no reason that judge has to go after X(I really hate that name), other than he’s swinging his dick around and doesn’t like to be told to put some damn underwear on. Arrest the citizens if they are breaking the law, if they aren’t breaking the law then what gives anyone the right to silence them? Just an egomaniac judge with no actual laws backing him and a tiny shvance facing off against a megalomaniac with a tiny shvance that consistently protects only the free speech he agrees with. There. Unknotted. If the people of Brazil want Nazi propaganda to end in a prison sentence, it should be law, and then all Twitter has to do is the same thing it does with other illegal content, turn over the user to the authorities and wash their hands of the mess. Not some judge unilaterally making free speech decisions(even in Brazil)
It’s perfectly valid to seize or forbid account that break the law. And if a company facilitates others to break the law you ask them to stop. In this case the company refused to… so now they are in trouble too.
If Brazil had a law that requires cars to be limited to 100km/h then they need to modify their cars to meet the law. And with ota updates do this in that country. If someone imports a car and it’s not updated even though the manufacturer knows it is in that country, they also breech the law.
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