“I can still remember when doner kebabs were sold for €3.50,” reminisced one teenager amid calls for a price brake to stop rising kebab costs.
The German capital is the birthplace of that ubiquitous European fast food, the doner kebab, and it shows.
Kebab shops line streets of many German cities, particularly in Berlin, and the scent of roasting, skewered meat is never far off.
Some two-million doner kebabs — meat wrapped in bread, topped with sauces and vegetables — are consumed a day in Germany, according to an industry association, quite a lot for a country of 83 million people. And the doner kebab has even supplanted the old stalwart, the currywurst — fried veal sausage topped with ketchup and curry powder — as the most popular fast-food dish in the country, according to a 2022 survey.
I remember 3,50€ from fucking 2007. They make it seem like the prices have gone up from that within the last two years. Meat is way too cheap anyway.
In 2017 I could still find Döner for 4€ in Nürnberg. Now it’s 7,50€.
Which is a clear sign for Döner being consistent with overall rise of prices due to inflationin the last 20 years. Maybe it has been too cheap for too long. Bad working conditions, a lot or family business where family members “help out” to deal with the heavy competition etc.
Lol. This fuckin guy actually believes the spoils are trickling down to workers and small businesses! I have a bridge you might be interested in…
Meat is way too cheap anyway.
This is why I hate that they are focussing on Döner and are even asking for a Dönerpreisbremse. For all I care, discuss falafels, french fries, anything that has no meat in it. I’m not a vegan or vegetarian but it is hilarious to complain that a meat based dish should still be the “easily affordable” fast food for everyone. In 2024. Come on.
I paid between 2,50€ and 4€ around 2016-2018 (depending on the city and place). It’s far more recent than 2007.
2007?
I payed 4€ at my local döner shop before the pandemic. Last year it was 6 and last week i payed 8€ for it.
Doubled the price since 2020!!
Yeah this has some real “old me yells at cloud” vibes.
Meat is way too cheap anyway.
What do you mean “meat is way too cheap”? Are you a kebab joint owner?
A pack of dried beef is like 4 euros where i live. The vegan alternative is smoked beets, which basically tastes the same but comes in a smaller packet and is like 8.50. So you’re telling me it’s cheaper to raise a cow, feed it, make sure it doesn’t move too much, drive it somewhere to get killed, get it butchered, and smoked and dried than slice beets and smoke it?
On the other hand, feeling angst is part of being German, isn’t it?
You guys came up with the word.
You don’t have a word in your language that has a similar meaning? (like “fear” for example)
The word “angst” was taken over as a part of the language. It’s a specific type of fear, sort of mixed with anxiety. Fear and angst aren’t interchangable
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It was a Nietzsche joke.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existentialism#Angst_and_dread
For Kierkegaard, anxiety/dread/angst is “freedom’s actuality as the possibility of possibility.” Kierkegaard uses the example of a man standing on the edge of a tall building or cliff. When the man looks over the edge, he experiences an aversion to the possibility of falling, but at the same time, the man feels a terrifying impulse to throw himself intentionally off the edge. That experience is anxiety or dread because of our complete freedom to choose to either throw oneself off or to stay put. The mere fact that one has the possibility and freedom to do something, even the most terrifying of possibilities, triggers immense feelings of dread. Kierkegaard called this our “dizziness of freedom.”
Nietzsche later picked it up, himself using Angst as that’s basically the same word as Danish angst (shocking, I know). Danish also has frygt, German Furcht, English fright, which is immediate and not apprehensive. Reactive, not agentive. Fright is something that happens to you, dread is something you do. At least in theory people don’t always make a clear distinction, they’re blending into each other.
Do note how angst is translated as anxiety or dread, here, which is correct. In psychology English uses anxiety where German uses Angst, both existentialists were talking about psychology, which leaves us with the question on why English philosophers felt the need to import the Danish, or German, or whatever, word, when they had two perfectly fine words of their own.
I feel like “angst” has a competition of uncomfortableness. It’s maybe more specific than anxiety and not as oppressive. Like teenage angst, it’s temporary
Dutch has the same word: angst. In my experience it’s not as “heavy” as Angst in German, but rather interchangeable with “schrik hebben” or “bang zijn”. Though “angstig zijn” might be more of longer duration, like a character trait of a person.
“Angst” in german is just the translation of normal fear. It doesn’t has the implication of existential threat it has in english.
I think you guys got the word from Sigmund Freud and gave it a very loaded meaning it doesnt have in german.
The local version of this in southern California is the Banh Mi, a Vietnamese sandwich on a baguette. Less than 10 years ago you could get a good banh mi for 3 or 4 bucks, and these days even the cheapest I’ve seen are $6.50 and many places are charging over $10 for this perfect sandwich. At least double in under 10 years :(
Do you remember the döner riots of '24?
The Bell riots are due in a couple months. Maybe this is the real catalyst.
I’m looking forward to seeing Gabriel and fighting with him.
Stranger things have happened. Reminds me of the Bavarian beer riots of 1844.
As a southern Californian, I measure inflation by the cost of tacos.
Inflation is out of control, despite whatever metrics the government uses. Tacos don’t lie.
I think Turkey and Greece can finally agree on one thing
spoiler
That Germany didn’t invent doner lmao
Supposedly the specific form of Doner Kebab was made by Turkish immigrants in the 70s in West Berlin
This thumbnail goes hard.
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I have never heard of this fast food, but it looks like if a gyro was made burrito bowl style and stuffed in a Chinese takeout container. Maybe we should get these here in the States.
It is basically a gyro.
a gyro? do you mean a gyros?
We have them.
Not everywhere we don’t, obviously.
Nothing exists everywhere.
It’s still too cheap
I usually disregard this type of food wars, but the article using clear cut phrasing to attribute döner to Germany in 2 instances has quite triggered me as a Turkish person. I can shrug off the title if it was all there is to it, but what the hell of a British culture-stealing attempt is it to call Berlin the birthplace of döner, and it a European food coupled with that? If one did not know better, one would think that such a food being almost used as point to refuse Turkey’s integration to EU a European cuisine.
What’s next, our Kokoreç is a French food?
The modern Döner was indeed invented in Berlin. e.g. check Wikipedia
The modern sandwich variant of döner kebab originated and was popularized in 1970s West Berlin by Turkish immigrants. This was recognized by the Berlin-based Association of Turkish Doner Manufacturers in Europe in 2011.
You should start with the first paragraph of that same wikipedia page to see the Döner Kebab being originated in Turkey, going back to 1800s.
Many food types have regional and personal or family variants, but no one calls taco prepared in Europe with different ingredients oroginated in Europe. Notably, the same wikipedia mentions the Arab variant is called Shawarma, which is a more culture-respecting approach than whatever this article does.
The original Turkish Döner Kebab comes on a plate, not in pide or dürüm, nor would Turks ever really entertain the idea of putting Tsatsiki or any sauce on meat, and you’ll also be hard-pressed to see them eat cabbage.
Meanwhile you’ll be hard-pressed to see Germans eat meat without sauce, and various forms of cabbage-containing salad are very popular.
The Döner in its German form is Turkish-German fusion food. It could not have occurred without two culinary traditions meeting. Heck, the name isn’t even grammatical in Turkish. The meat, both style and preparation and spices, is 100% Turkish, the bread is Turkish-inspired but underwent German bread engineering, the rest is either native German or previous imports: It really is Tsatsiki, not Cacık. No dill, no mint, and no water. If you want diluted yoghurt you can have Ayran.
If you nowadays see German-style Döner in Turkey then that’s because the idea has been re-imported.
Both Döner and Kebab are words that passed into English and other European languages from Turkish. Importing these words to form an ungrammatical phrase is a feature of borrowing words from another language. While the new word, and new food, may be considered a word of the importing language, as many English and German words are, they are never considered the origin or birthplace. Same goes for food.
With this logic of changing something on top of the same base thing a calling it originating in a new country already shows itself as contract manufacturing, and many would considered slapping a Made in the U.S. label while all the work except a laser logo engraving comes from somewhere else a malpractice and marketing customarily, although it is legal.
With the same logic, one can even go as much as culture-stealing with calling all the damaged cultural heritage in the British museums a British artifact, since they are no longer the same artifact they were in their homelands. Hell, lets go even painting these old statues with modern paint practices and call them originating from wherever they are painted.
Origin is something, cultural assimilation in a neutral connotation is another.
Dude noone in Germany is denying the Turkish roots of Döner and neither is the Politico article.
Americans eat Hamburgers. That’s a Fischbrötchen with the fish replaced with unseasoned Frikadelle, doused in that ketchup of theirs. I can tell you, with absolute authority, that Hamburg doesn’t claim to have invented it, at least not in the form that the US and the world knows it. The utmost claim is that HAPAG served Frikadellen (proper ones with onions and everything) in buns on their emigration ships to the US to save on dishwashing costs while making sure people would be fit enough to get past Ellis Island (there was a return trip and money back guarantee).
So, stop it. Or I’ll call Raki an Ouzo ersatz.
Call it whatever you want, my energy to protest against western media’s bias in what to call with bad connotations, whom to call terrorists, which European country to attribute what popular thing, what topic to underreport has its limits and I have hardly any tolerance left to discuss the sidetracking details about this.
Nah your energy is to be as offended as possible to feel as superior as possible.
Also have you ever analysed the coverage of Northern Ireland in Rwanda’s press. Selective reporting! Selective reporting!
Birthplace aside, doner is European because Europe includes both Germany and Turkey.
“European” is not the same as “EU member”.
And this is just when the arbitrary culture lines decide when to include Turkey as a whole in Europe because it is convenient this time.
I wonder what the most governments and people of Europe were thinking during the decision to house 10 million Syrian refugees in Turkey, practically acting as floodplains for the refugees crises they engineered in the Middle East, citing “similar cultures” as the reason? I believe they were thinking " Turkey is a part of the Middle East, not Europe.
Turkey is within Europe. It’s a question of geography, not culture.
What people think about Turkish culture is a completely separate question. Americans have a similar culture to the British, but that does not make Americans part of Europe. Nor can Turkey’s culture move their land outside of Europe.
With geography considered, Turkey has 80% of its landmass in Asia. With how you interpret the geographical continents, you can even say the whole old world is simply Asia and Africa. It is a matter of preference than it is a matter of any other aspect, anyway. And you don’t have to go far, just visit your nearest general online map community, to see that Turkey’s situation especially is a matter of preference and convenience.
And such a food is mostly a culture related thing rather than a geographical feature. Yes, geography and culture is intertwined on a lot of topics, and some food types are almost completely related to the geographical situation, like fish based cuisine being a staple of Japanese cuisine, but you can hardly call a red meat with different cooking style a matter of geography.
Yes, Turkey is both in Europe and in Asia. The same is true of Russia.
Food is definitely cultural. Which means doner is part of European culture. Just like Russian borscht.
