Would fucking love it if we just got rid of tipping all together. Employers -not customers- should be responsible for providing employees good pay.
Factor the difference into up front price of the food/service and be done with it.
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But it should be a hard opt-in, no “decline tip” bullshit, social engineering is still at issue
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If Businesses don’t get a share of tips Square’s model dies and SE with it.
Not my problem to figure out their business model.
If their business model doesn’t work and they go out of business, isn’t that the point of capitalism?
Pure capitalism? Yes.
Ordering from a place that you know pays workers in tips and not tipping makes someone more of a bitch. You’re not changing anything because without legislation there will never be enough people to make it happen. The system is too established. At this point claiming to be working towards change by not tipping is just making an excuse because you weren’t ever going to tip and it’s not fooling anyone.
Unless “we” change it via legislation, that’s never going to happen. Let’s explore how it would play out as an individual restaurant initiative:
Restaurant raises staff wages, raises prices to cover the increase. Even if you disclose it on the menu, customers don’t care: they see prices 20% higher, they choose to eat somewhere with cheaper menu prices. This is frequently what happens when restaurants try to do that.
If the restaurant increases server wages less than what they would make in tips, the servers will leave for another restaurant. The benefit of tips is that the harder you work, and more tables you take, the more money you make. Good servers can make $50+ an hour if they hustle.
Source: 8 years experience in the industry.
The benefit of tips is that the harder you work, and more tables you take, the more money you make. Good servers can make $50+ an hour if they hustle.
I shouldn’t be paying my server’s wage; the restaurant should.
Name one other job (that isn’t in the food service industry) where the buyers subsidize the worker’s salary voluntarily.
Literally every other contractor. But that’s irrelevant to the point.
This is the way it is. Whether or not it’s a good system, it’s the system which exists. Changing the system will require a transition. If that transition comes from individual restaurants changing their policy, they will have 1) staffing issues as no server will stay when they could make more elsewhere, 2) customer issues as customers will prefer restaurants with lower menu prices, even if the total is the same.
This isn’t a value judgement, or a defense, this is a statement of fact. The only change that will stock would have to come from legislation. Societal systems have considerable inertia.
Again, name one other industry.
Why are you so stuck on that? Other industries not doing it doesn’t matter. It’s the system in place now and would take a big effort from everyone (aka legislation) to change. That’s the point. They’re not even defending the tipping system.
Name. One. Industry.
I’ll wait.
Many services… Maid service in hotels and hotel services in the industry as well. Taxi/goods delivery(not just food, but things like target 2hr delivery)…
I’m not saying it’s good… And I think the fundamental problem exists in these jobs as well… Typing should just not exist. Japan, for example has no tipping… It’s ducking fantastic.
It’s entirely irrelevant.
Name one industry with security theater like air travel. Name one industry with lobbying like politics. Name one industry with subsidization like agriculture.
The tipping situation is a product of a problematic history, but it is what it is. The entire system is based on it. Saying something is unique has nothing to do with the process to change it.
Name one industry with security theater like air travel.
The events industry. Do you really think those bag checks do anything with how quickly they “look” in your bag before going into a venue?
I did one; now you do yours.
Again, this “argument” is totally irrelevant, but:
If that counts the same as TSA, then hair/nail stylists, massage therapists, valets, Uber (and taxi and limo) drivers, hotel housekeepers and concierges are all traditionally tipped.
But again, that doesn’t matter. The system is what it is. Changing it is an option, but that does have practical considerations associated with it.
Thing is, no one would accept to pay what’s written on the menu if they charged enough to cover what people pay in tip, it’s all psychological manipulation.
Prices would need to increase by about 20% and you wouldn’t have a choice to pay it anymore, contrary to tips. Or you accept that servers now only make minimum wage.
That’s interesting.
InIt works all across the world exactly how you say it wouldn’t work.Service expectations across the world are drastically lower than in the US.
Do servers make over 70k/year everywhere in the world?
That’s something people don’t realize in North America, restaurant servers make fucking bank! If they complain about not having money it’s because of the restaurant culture of going out after every shift.
What’s your experience in the restaurant industry?
Good servers make about half of what you think they make. Your number is reserved for senior sommeliers and chefs; the only way FOH hits that is by selling drugs to BOH or working 80hr weeks.
If it paid that well there’d be no staffing issues at all, think about it.
At my last job servers are making 300+ in tip every 8h shift and get their salary that’s way above minimum plus they have full benefits including a pension fund and the business still has a hard time finding staff because the restaurant industry in general is a mess including the people working in it that think grass is always greener elsewhere.
Edit: Forgot, they’re unionized too
most of your country is nothing like your extremely privileged little bubble.
I’m just pointing out that saying “If they were paid that much we wouldn’t have trouble finding staff!” is bullshit. With even better conditions my previous employer has trouble finding staff.
There is a lot more to economy than some number in some currency. There are servers in many first world countries making wages where they are able to pay for their homes and have social services like healthcare, all while customers at their places of employment pay the listed price.
70k USD means nothing in isolation, without respect for local economy and cost of living.
Please! For the love of God! Get rid of tipping!
I hate tipping! As the consumer I should not be responsible for proving a living wage for someone else’s employees!
as a European I have to say both the Tipping culture and the not showing the full price in stores with VAT included is just mindblowing.
It’s literally a culture of hiding true costs, weird af.
Hotels too. The advertised price is never accurate because their stupid resort fees.
What now? First I’m hearing of this. How much extra?
Again, it’s prevalent in the US market, not sure about others. They advertise say $199 / night, but when you go to check out, there’s something like a ~$35- $50 /night resort fee to “pay for amenities like WiFi/ gym /pool”. You can’t reject paying the fee, so your hotel room is actually like 25% higher than advertised.
Yeah, that’d be quite illegal down here. I spent basically half a year living in hotels straight due to work all across the UK and primarily London then continued for a few years after. So we’re likely talking +300 nights. I have never seen an additional charge.
It’s literally a culture of hiding true costs, weird af.
Makes me happy though in this day and age that people are waking up to this fact, and are starting to push back on it.
In the past corporations/governments thought people were a lot more unaware, than they are today.
It’s a culture of trying to get away with whatever makes the most profits. We also have that, but there are some reasonable laws working against that. One of my favourites is the duty to display per kg or per litre price. Before that, shops made the package sizes deliberately confusing.
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Have lived in both eu and us.
Agree, but the challenge on tax is that it’s not harmonized across municipalities. This means that stores that are across the street from each other may have identical prices/profit margin and a different net price to the consumer. This would lead to consumer preferences biased by physical location and have lots of other weird side effects. You can see this in areas that border state lines when the tax is appreciably different.
Step one is a harmonized tax rate, but that’s easier said than done.
I was going to say this but fear of mass downvotes kept me quiet. Glad I’m not the only one. I’ve worked for tips but I’d rather just work for a reasonable wage instead, remove the guesswork and chances for abuse.
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You dont have to tip bro its okay
No. I actually kinda do. Like if I’m out with friends I literally get judged if I tip poorly let alone if I don’t tip at all which is social suicide.
And if I have a coupon for a meal, say 50% or something like that I still have to tip on the original amount before the discount was applied.
Moreover, and most importantly in some restaurants tipping is the only source of income the server gets. Regardless of how I feel about it I am still responsible for this person’s wage.
I hate tipping culture.
You have friends? Wow that must be nice
It’s not socially acceptable to not tip servers in a full service restaurant in the USA. It’s becoming a required social norm to tip fast casual.
The pandemic really changed the tipping norms in the USA.
“Ballot measures pending in Michigan, Arizona, Ohio and Massachusetts, and a bill being reintroduced in Connecticut”. There.
MVP
Great. I’m never tipping again.
Paying your employee’s is not my responsibility.
I live in a state that pays minimum wage to tipped workers. The annoying thing is they still expect you to tip. They’ll even add 5% for worker healthcare and an 18% gratuity then give you a receipt with a tip line.
We need to do away with the whole concept of tipping. The employer should pay their workers end of story. The problem with tipping is it is never enough. If employees complain about low wages, the employer will just go to the customer for more. It used to be that a 10% tip was enough, then 15, then 18, then 20, now I see 25 and 30.
100% agree, pay your employees a decent wage, if you need to raise prices to do that then do that. If I can’t afford it then I’ll make different plans. Don’t charge me menu price and then expect me to subsidize your payroll off-the-books. If you can’t pay employees maybe your business plan is shit and shouldn’t exist.
If they’re taking extra are you workers actually getting the health insurance and coverage you deserve or are they straight up lying? I’d believe you, the worker, before I believe anything a corporate entity has to say.
Since you used the possessive, I think you forgot a word.
Employee’s salary?
I don’t know about you, but I pay employees in company scrip…
(/s… scrip is illegal. Also evil, but details.)
Growing up in WV someone gave me a bag of scrip they had collected and when I lost my house I lost that bag.
One of the many things that broke my heart losing that place.
So fucked up the way I lost it too.
My siblings, mother, and I all lived with my aunt when my mom got the place. Since we were there often she never bothered to have the mail sent to her. I took over payments, lived there for about 5 years, paid the bill every month. Apparently it was an adjustable rate and the payment had gone up. They never bothered to tell me the few times I made the payment in person, probably because it wasn’t in my name (usually dropped it in the overnight box after work). One night I came home from work to a note on the door telling me I had 2 weeks to vacate. My aunt never opened the mail, she’d just toss it when we didn’t get it. I don’t blame her. No one asked for it for years. When my mom called, I was behind over 2k on the payment. We didn’t have it, couldn’t come up with it (minimum wage was 5.15 at the time) and they wouldn’t budge. They thought “well they owe 40k, we can sell it for whatever” and wouldn’t budge. I’ve had people tell me I could have hired a lawyer, but I was homeless, ignorant, and selling everything I could to come up with a security deposit to rent a place. I lost many family heirlooms and prized possessions. It was a huge house, 5 bedrooms. I had three of the unused bedrooms full of stuff I and my family had collected over the years. I had the one of the very first home video tape recorders ever sold (Ampex). Tons of neat stuff like that just tossed in the landfill.
The house was in bad shape and this is the only thing about it that puts a smile on my face. It sits empty today, windows boarded up, ceilings caving in. They got nothing for it. Hoorah!
Sorry for the story. It just crossed my mind because you brought up scrip and I just typed away with my ADHD ass. Take care.
That’s… not how it works. The key word here is “minimum” wage which we all know is woefully inadequate. Going from making $2.13 to $7.25 isn’t going to pay anyone’s rent without help
Do you tip everyone who works minimum wage, though?
This is why I’ve been saying we should be focusing on raising minimum wage before worrying about tipping. I’m telling you right now almost nobody is going to put up with the ass tier job of being a server for minimum wage. It’s short sighted to be worrying about tips just because they annoy you now when that’s nothing compared to just letting everyone make a living wage.
Everyone? No. Most places can’t hire if they’re paying minimum, so not a lot of people working non tipped positions are paid the absolute minimum.
Food workers, yes.
Regardless, this is a bad faith strawman argument
There is nothing bad faith or strawmanning about my question. I’m just going to take that accusation as a sign that you know you don’t actually have a valid argument and don’t want to continue.
Not to mention, by using the service which “forces you to tip to compensate the worker” at all, if you don’t participate in the tipping, you’re simply exploiting the worker with the business owner who got his money and doesn’t give a fuck about the worker thus the $2.13/hr. The only ethical option to “not tip” is “not order,” opting instead to heat up your own nuggies, or pop in a Freschetta, or find a business that does pay fairly and support them, or start one. By ordering, paying in full, and not tipping the delivery or wait staff, you’ve affected no change beyond exploiting that worker and making it harder to afford rent, even if they quit they will be just replaced and the cycle of exploitation begins anew.
I understand where you are coming from but the purpose of the free market doctrine is to allow both consumers and workers to choose where they buy from and where they work at.
No one is forced, gun to head, to work at (X) location or buy at (X) location. If you believe you are worth more, you need to work somewhere that is willing to pay you what you’re worth.
I used to work the service industry and ended up getting my red seal as a chef and around the same time I got my red seal I abandoned the industry. I saw where it was going, I trained to make 5 star meals and then once working at a five star restaurant got paid minimum wage and treated like shit by both employer and customers alike.
I took out loans and went to university and because I did this I will die in debt, but I will at least die having access to somewhat reasonable accommodations and food.
My advice to anyone stuck in a similar situation as I was is to avoid college/university and get online accreditation and certification for network security or similar. You can practice the materials for free and when ready pay for the certification tests then leap from whatever unfavourable job to one that pays, in some cases, obscenely more than necessary.
So that should cover everyone in this day and age since everyone asks for a tip now /s
Greedy employers leverage tipping to pay their employees the least amount possible. It’s fucking disgusting.
And too many people who receive tips don’t realize that it’s their employer fucking them over rather.
It’s worse than that, most of the time, employers are skimming from the tips. Don’t tip for things that were previously non-tipped and give the person cash if you can.
The scummiest thing I’ve seen is restaurants adding a percent service fee before asking for an extra tip on top. Not a delivery service or 3rd party, the restaurant itself. Basically it makes customers tip less because they see the service fee so it’s just flat out stealing the tip from workers.
Surely you’ve got a source on this highly illegal activity. Or is it more likely you’re making stuff up?
While I abhor the whole concept of tipping, the thing that really grinds my gears is that we are expected to pay a percentage of the bill for service. If I order a basic cheese pizza or a 16 ounce tomahawk steak with a big chunk of foie gras and all the trimmings the server does not have to do much extra work for the latter. But if I have to tip $5 on a $20 pizza, why the fuck do I have to tip $100 for almost the same amount of service for the steak? Sure it weighs more and you might need to make an extra trip to serve the trimmings, but WTF, the server is not providing any more value by serving an expensive dish.
If I order an expensive bottle of wine it takes no extra effort to serve, why should I pay a shit ton more service charge?
USA, get your shit together, this is so not right. Land of the free? My arse.
Because restaurants decided to enforce tipping by percentage after world war 2 in order to keep payroll down. They lobbied for laws around it and ran advertisements to the public. Corporate governance is a huge problem in the US and tipping is just one facet.
Thanks for the background.
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How is it a minimum wage if you dont have to pay it in full?
There’s a loop hole where companies don’t have to pay minimum wage if tips amount to the minimum wage that would have been earned by the employee.
It’s a shitty way for companies to not pay their employees and expect customers to pay them.
While I do tip. It does suck that eating out pretty much requires a donation because we all agree that food workers don’t make enough to live on. And I live in a State where they get full minimum. Just give the workers food and boarding and we can call it a deal, oh wait… Let’s not.
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You’re going to get banned from a bunch of restaurants then. Anywhere worth eating enforces tipping. Some of them have it already included in the bill.
I understand your frustration but that’s going to add far more stress to your trip, will result in servers being underpaid, and could result in the police being called if you refuse to pay a tip that’s already included on the bill.
I’d like to see that in court.
Sure thing buddy. Here you go. As for the charges sticking? Who cares? You just got arrested on holiday.
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Because we care about profits more than we care about people.
Then I’ll turn around and counter-sue the restaurant, and make the restaurant owner’s life a living hell for the rest of their life. Maybe they’ll even end up on the street after their house gets taken from them.
Counter sue what? They aren’t sueing you and they didn’t arrest you. The legal advice to restaurants is to have the police come even for removing people because that shifts the legal liability.
You can’t just make it up. The courts will dismiss your car and charge you money for the pleasure.
Absolutely no establishments are going to ban a customer for not tipping.
I’ve seen it happen.
Reminder that a “living wage”, and what most servers make, is at least 3x minimum wage, so tipping is still going to be required.
Why? I hope this is just the first step toward the end of tipping culture. Why should servers be held out as a special category deserving higher pay? They deserve a decent wage at least minimum, just like everyone else. If businesses need to pay them more to attract employees, then that’s the free market at work. That’s more predictable, transparent, honest toward all of the business, the employee, and the customer
Servers shouldn’t be special, obviously. The obligatory tipping system we have is an complete dumpster fire. But this is taking employees who currently make $30/hr in tips and changing their minimum wage from $2/hr to $7/hr. It’s not going to change anything. How could it? Would you give up a $30/hr job to take a $7/hr job on principle? Unless you’re independently wealthy, you couldn’t even if you wanted to.
But this is taking employees who currently make $30/hr in tips and changing their minimum wage from $2/hr to $7/hr. It’s not going to change anything.
Well at that point then the employers will need to raise how much they’re offering the employees, or the employees will look for other work. Normal capitalistic market scenario.
Bottom line is for the employees to keep making the same kind of money, but having that be done out of the employer’s pocket, and not the customer’s pocket.
And if the employer refuses to give up some of their profits to the employee to do that, and instead just tries to raise the prices of their products to offset, then they’ll find themselves going out of business right quick like, again, normal capitalistic market scenario.
Yup, servers often times make much more than other “minimum wage” jobs.
Since Lemmy is trying to be better than Reddit, can we agree that titles should be like ‘5 US states…’? Not every person that reads news here lives in the United States 🕊️
Are there other countries that have"states" and not provinces?
many federal countries have states. Examples: Mexico, Brazil
Oh shit I didn’t know Mexico had states o.o I assumed a lesser known country would have states. Thanks
Yes.
Can you name a few…?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federated_state#List_of_constituents_by_federation
It’s not that hard to find if you’re genuinely interested in learning about it.
I’m not interested, I just want to be proven wrong.
Go figure.
Nice.
- Restaurants lobby US government to pay their staff less than minimum wage
- Restaurants tell customers if they want better service, they should tip their server
- Customers begrudgingly begin tipping their servers
- Sexually attractive female servers in their early 20s absolutely destroy, making people think there’s a scam at work (seriously, I’ve seen girls I’ve worked with go on back to back WEEKEND vacations to Cancun on their tips, and I live in Canada, but it’s not a scam, it’s just horny dudes simping for their server)
- People start to complain about tipping culture, seemingly blaming the server for just working a job and not the restaurant owner for paying their staff starvation wages (we are here right now)
- States mandate minimum wage for service industry staff
- Restaurant prices go up to pay for wages but tip culture begins to go away
- Servers are making less money so they go get easier jobs that pay the same (working in a restaurant can be fucking BRUTAL)
- Restaurants hire more and more Indian immigrants, while hard working, are indicative of an even larger societal problem
- Restaurant owners continue to make out like bandits, while customers and staff get shafted.
How’s the customer getting Shafter in this scenario?
The state of Texas is committed to ending slavery in the coming decade. As a first step they are proposing that minimum wage should cover an entire cardboard box living quarters. And we’re not talking shoebox size Amazon hand me downs that still have the return address tag! They will remove the tag and provide enough duct tape to seal that portion of the box. Under article 17 of the 2024 end of slavery pact, they propose that men and women under the age of 27 shall not be responsible for sealing and or weather proofing their cardboard boxes. Older people are not covered yet, but may be covered as soon as two or three more migrant babies are sold back to their respective Mexican families. Indeed, Texas is making strides to accommodate the world’s demands for fair treatment of human rights and the people who should have them.
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It’s also bullshit that tipped workers rarely pay taxes on the vast majority of their earnings. We’re subsiding their wages, access to infrastructure, and social services.
Lmao this has got to be the most misplaced anger ever. You’re mad at people that don’t even make minimum wage aren’t paying taxes on the maybe $35k a year? How about the billionaires that basically don’t pay taxes? Maybe we should deal with that first.
It’s been a long time since ither of you’ve been a server, huh? They’re doing better than that unless they are part-time.
Your point stands, that taxing billionairs is good, but a full-time server is probably doing 50k+ in all but the lowest cost of living areas. Because a tipped employee earns a % of goods sold, they are hurt less by inflation. The rising prices people pay result in higher tips. But since most places aren’t cash, only the vast majority of their tips are via card and thus recorded and reported.
TLDR, they aren’t as bad off as people think, and they are mostly taxed correctly.
50k ain’t shit these days
That’s at the minimum. My friend clears 100k working fine dining, but I know that’s an exception.
Considering a 4 top will be guaranteed, get a bill over $100 their averages have risen. And since I am in California, they get their county’s minimum, which is $17/hour plus tips. So my friends who serve part-time make about 60k annually here. Not bad for part-time work.
This is why I think most states should be moving our direction, as the article states.
Servers aren’t getting a constant influx of people every day that they work, it varies from day to day except for the most popular places, even then tips aren’t consistent amongst different groups of guests at popular places.
It’s not their fault that their income comes from untaxed tips because their boss isn’t paying them a taxable wage.
All business is like this, which is why we average our earnings in these discussions.
When I managed a grocery store where tips were super rare and never % based, the slow days were about $36k earnings, and the busy days were about $92k. Unfortunately, a server still has to be present on slow days, which may be low earning days, but often that’s balanced with another preferred shift.
Did they take the job? Who’s fault is it that they’re showing themselves to be ‘taken advantage’ of?
Not everyone takes a job because they want to, a lot of people wait tables because they need some source of income. They’re being taken advantage of because they’re willing to work for anything.
For reference, Musk paid 8.3 billion in federal taxes in 2021, after all the evasion tricks. So even if the servers are being taxed correctly, who cares, it doesn’t actually impact the economy.
It does. That’s how taxes work. Musk’s taxes don’t benefit everyone equally. The server’s taxes will be split, and the portion that goes to their state may be one that a billionaire doesn’t pay into.
But it doesn’t matter since you’ve created a straw man argument. I don’t disagree with anything you’ve said about taxing the rich. You just take exception to me stating that servers also pay taxes for some baffling reason.
I feel like this was true when cash was more widely used, however, anytime recently I’ve been out it’s always a tip on the card (which they can’t “hide” from the govt).
They have to report their cash earnings for taxes… Maybe some don’t but most businesses will at least require it.
They don’t really avoid taxes now. Anything tip charged to a card gets taxed. Cash tips might not be claimed but that’s very little for most tipped workers. Additionally tipped workers paid below minimum wage make the employer responsible for making up the difference if they don’t have enough tips reported to avg min wage. That means the employers are very motivated to ensure their employee tips are reported.
Also, even years ago when cash tips were a significant % of tips, being predominantly low wage workers those employees would get virtually all their taxes back after filing a return as well. They wouldn’t get SS taxes back but otherwise for most not reporting tips didn’t amount to a lot of missed taxes. There were some exceptions where people made decent money - maybe high end restaurants and salons - but today with little cash use there aren’t many taxes missed.
