Can someone please calmly explain how blocking a freeway across an ocean and a country on a different continent, is supposed to have any effect on a political issue in the middle east?
A lot of what these protests are trying to do is make it harder to ignore the reality of what is happening.
Now I agree these kind of protests don’t gain support. But they’re not trying to win support: they’re trying to make people aware of the problem as one that shosuldn’t be ignored.
The gamble is the cause is important enough and sympathetic enough that forcing people to be aware of it might get people towards political action. Even if it is just calling their representstive and going ‘wtf’.
For Americans every dollar we earn at work and every cent of tax we pay is a contributing factor in the conflict. But many are aware and think that is just fine. That is my personal concern with this protest: a lot of Americans are completely stoked about it and protesting just makes them shrug and go ‘purple hairs lol’.
Yes, they’re banking on the “no such thing as bad publicity” mantra and willing to risk jail time for that.
I think there are better ways of doing that, and I also don’t think this is the right time to do it. We’re not directly involved in that war, we’re merely selling weapons and keeping ships in the area to discourage the conflict from spreading. This isn’t like Vietnam where we’re literally the ones doing the killing.
I agree that Palestine should be free, but not with Hamas in control. Hamas is a terrorist org that networks with other terrorist orgs, and if they gain independence, they’ll continue terrorism. Fatah isn’t much better, but they seem quite a bit more reasonable and perhaps should be courted in negotiations for an independent Israel. Regardless, any independent Palestine must recognize Israel’s legitimacy or it’s not going to happen.
One could argue that blocking a freeway causes some negative economic impact. There are a number of US defense contractors who are profiting nicely from Israel’s recent military mobilization. This could be a message to the military industrial complex that “we the people” can grind things to a halt if we need to.
Personally I’m not a fan of blocking freeways as a form of protest, there’s just too much risk of affecting something time sensitive like an ambulance, organ transplant, etc. But I also empathize with the protestors, they probably feel strongly (as do I) that the violence needs to stop, and they feel helpless. There’s a lot of drive to make things right, and no real way to do that other than making a statement.
I see this argument every time a protest is held.
Can you name the number of times an emergency vehicle like an ambulance was blocked with a negative consequence from a blockade protest and divide it by the number of times such protests have occurred in the US?
I want to know what your threshold of “too much risk” means in terms of empirical data.
Yeah, I think the fact that highway blockages are viewed so divisively only points to how effective they are. They have economic impact and are hugely visible – I think they’re one of the most effective non-violent direct action tactics available, though the participants should prepare to have the book thrown at them.
I think they should be treated as harshly as police who harass and assault people - there should be an internal investigation by other protestors, and if suspicion is found they should be forced to go on leave from work with full pay until the investigation concludes they were only doing what they were trained to do.
So your numerator is 1. What’s your denominator? Let’s call it the number of street blocking protests in the last ten years.
In addition, the article doesn’t mention any ill effects coming from the delay, so we should probably be using a weighted function for this to see when it had an actual medical consequence.
I most certainly cannot. I wouldn’t even know where to start to find that data. I’m not sure it’s ever happened, nor if it’s something that would even be tracked/documented in any meaningful way. Tons of random things can delay something like an ambulance - car crashes, inclement weather, rush hour, etc.
My point was not that freeway-blocking protests are inherently bad, just that my feelings of the potential for negative impacts to innocent “bystanders” stress me out. I am not a fan of freeway-blocking protests for the same reason that I am not a fan of icy roads.
Now, is a freeway-blocking protest effective? Depends on how you quantify effectiveness. Was awareness raised? (Probably.) Were the lives of Gaza’s residents improved? (Probably not.) Would some other protest format have been more effective? (Probably not.) Are any protests really that effective when our government answers to billionaires instead of citizens? (Doubt it.) Does that mean we should lay down and accept mistreatment of our fellow humans? (Fuck no!)
So in theory you would have a much bigger problem with people who tailgate, exceed the speed limit, and fail to signal when changing lanes, or who fail to admit in people on lane merges, right? I’m pretty sure that, just at a raw numbers level, these kinds of things (along with the more obvious ones like texting while driving) cause far more traffic delays than the occasional protest.
Do you have a history of complaining about traffic violations in general, or is it just for people protesting for social justice?
Look, I know I’m slamming you and you don’t deserve it. I know it sounds like I’m attacking you personally, and that is not my intent. What I’m trying to draw attention to, however clumsily, is that this sort of narrative gets passed around very easily, even among the most well meaning of people. It’s regularly mentioned in the right wing media, and even in centrist media like the NYT. I’ve just worked on propaganda models for too long to not occasionally say something.
So in theory you would have a much bigger problem with people who tailgate, exceed the speed limit, and fail to signal when changing lanes, or who fail to admit in people on lane merges, right?
Fuck yes I do. (Can I say “fuck” in here?) Driving is dangerous, and people don’t take it seriously enough. Forget traffic delays, people die on the roads every single day. Heck, I wonder if this freeway shutdown could’ve actually saved lives.
Do you have a history of complaining about traffic violations in general, or is it just for people protesting for social justice?
The former, in multitudes. My partner told me that I’m not allowed to comment on other peoples’ driving around her anymore because it got annoying. I also have a history of complaining about how car-centric our society is in general, but that’s a topic for another day.
I know it sounds like I’m attacking you personally, and that is not my intent.
Thank you for that last paragraph, because I was about to throw myself a pity party lol. I think you raise an excellent point, and this type of “what-if-ism” is dangerous because it’s a distraction from the bigger issue at best, and demonizes social justice movements at worst. Definitely something I’ll keep in mind in the future.
Totally fair that people are protesting to try and bring awareness so that hopefully our government can get on board with a ceasefire. In the end, both sides of Israelis and Palestinians both are in a losing war. From my perspective, I see countless innocent Palestinians who might not be directly linked to Hamas having to deal with the horrors of war and then the Israeli side really aren’t doing themselves justice with the whole thing of bombing hospitals. Even if Hamas may or may not have been using them as base of operations it’s still a war crime in my book.
It doesn’t!
