https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=u01AbiCn_Nw mental outlaw video:
hi everyone, i was planning on getting a new laptop cheaply for about 500ish but then i stumbled upon this near-totally modular laptop rhat starts out at above 1000 bucks. do you think the cheaper laptop in the long run is just a false economy and i should go for the framework or what? if you want to ask questions go ahead but im mainly concerned about the longterm financials (and how well it will keep up over time)
Hi, Framework laptop owner here!
I love my laptop. I got it back in June (13th gen Intel) and have used it near-daily ever since. It’s got a nice build quality, I like the way it looks, and the modular slots are a nice concept (though I haven’t seen a need to swap out mine- I elected for 2 x USB-C and 2 x USB-A. You also need to pay attention to which ports go where because not all the slots support USB charging). I bought the barebones laptop, and added my own RAM and SSD to it which was significantly cheaper than getting it from Framework. I currently dual boot Linux Mint and occasionally Windows 11 and have had no significant issues with either, but there are a couple of little annoyances with Mint- the light-sensor to automatically adjust the brightness and the brightness keys conflict, so one or the other or both may not work correctly.
To your real question, is it worth it? Honestly, if performance is your sole metric, then no- there are cheaper alternatives out there for comparable performance. The premium you pay for a Framework is an investment in repairability and customizability- investments that may not pay off if the company doesn’t exist in the long term. All the promises and commitments in the world to letting users have the right to fix or modify their own hardware mean nothing if there’s no one to supply parts. I was aware of this before buying mine, so I was fine accepting that risk- after all, at one point in time Tesla was risky too but now it seems they’re poised to be the charging standard for EVs- and there are a couple of higher-ups at AMD who like the concept and are invested in Framework, which means it may be around for a while. But that’s still something you should keep in mind.
That said, you said you were looking for a $500-ish laptop, and are now asking about one that will cost you over double that? It’s not for me to tell you how to spend your money, but it sounds like you saw a cool idea and want to jump on the bandwagon. You should be extra sure that what you’re looking for fits your needs within your budget and you’re not just trying to “keep up with the Joneses.”
TL;DR: If you have the money, and are okay with the risk of a small company existing long-term, and it has the performance you need, then yes, I think they’re good buys.
do you need to biy usb c modules as theyre already 4 usb c’s built-in. also, how do i check if a memory stick will fit in befroehand
The memory modules are standard laptop SO-DIMM DDR4-3200 for the 13th Gen Intel (though the AMD version launching later this year will support DDR5). The storage slot is a standard M.2.
Do you absolutely need to buy the USB-C cards? Probably not, since the motherboard connections are USB-C. But you’re gonna have four gaps on the bottom of your laptop, it won’t be easy plugging or removing cables, and as someone else already said, the weight of a cord will put strain on the slot whereas the expansion cards put that strain on the case itself instead of the motherboard.
But they’re also only $9 each. The laptop itself is $1000+ and you wanna skimp out on $36 for expansion cards? If that’s where you’re looking at saving money, I’m seriously gonna suggest you look at other laptops that are much cheaper.
framework is VERY worth it.
modular slots on the side mean you can choose your inputs and where they go.everything inside the laptop is easily replaceable so if any individual part breaks you can replace it instead of the whole laptop. you can also easily make upgrades if better hardware comes out instead of waiting for a newer model if one ever comes out.
how do the modular slots get inputted? if i wanted a usb a one is it a usb a to c converter and if so wojld i need to buy a usb c slot?
all of the modular slots connect by USB C at the front.
you can see what they look like here:
https://frame.work/gb/en/marketplace/expansion-cardsI believe the slots are all USB-C, since they’d need to be the fastest currently possible connector to properly support all the others.
If you wanted a USB-A slot you just need to buy the USB-A module.
since they’d need to be the fastest
“USB C” only describes the connector and has nothing to do with speed.
Yes and no. USB-C is “the faster connector” compared to USB-A 3 because it supports faster protocols like USB 4 and even Thunderbolt 5. USB-A does not. It tops out at USB 3.2 Gen 2x2 (gawd what an awful naming scheme) with 20Gbps and even that’s rare. The newer, faster protocols with 40Gbps (USB4) or even 120Gbps (TB5) need the USB-C connector.
It supports faster protocols, yes. But “USB-C” on it’s own just defines the plug and the socket, and nothing more. That the hardware supports faster protocols does not mean that it can be used to describe a faster connection.
It’s nitpicking, but it is important nitpicking 🙃
The point here, for those downvoting this post, is that if you go out and buy something “with USB-C” it could for example only support the Low Speed rate of USB 1.0 (that’s all of 1.5Mbps, only good for stuff like mice and keyboards) and still be absolutelly legitimatelly be listed for sale as “having USB-C” because that’s just the connector format.
(Actually it’s even worse, as there is a charge only mode for that connector which does not require supporting any USB data modes at all)
There is indeed a connection between the connector (pun not intended) and the maximum speeds supported (but not necessarily present) because USB-C adds additional data lines not present in USB-A or any of the USB-B connectors, which allow higher data throughtput, but the connection is only in the direction of “higher speeds require USB-C”, not “USB-C implies higher speeds”.
All this to say that, IMHO, the previoua poster is right in calling attention to the difference.
Yeah I’m aware but you cannot support the fastest speeds without the additional contacts a type C port provides; unless they went with a proprietary port they wouldn’t be able to do the faster USB speeds.
So while type C doesn’t mean fast by itself, it does allow the capability to carry just about anything.
but if i wanted a usb c slot it’d be best not to even buy one and just use the ones built in already
you can do that but I would recommend against it. it might put strain on that port and if it breaks or is damaged you won’t be able to use that slot for anything else
Hi. Let’s set the table here. Context: What future advantage or benefit do you expect to get by investing?
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Your budget was initially $500.
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The absolute cheapest you can have a brand-new complete Frame Work 16 is $1,621 and 5 to 8 months (Ships Q2) assuming you get the cheapest of everything and don’t purchase secondary storage. You will have a low-end laptop with the ability to trivially upgrade it later.
For an additional $1,100 what do you expect to gain? In reality you can get an equivalent performance for $200, so the question then becomes $1,300 for what?
For $2,187 you can have an equivalent to this $1,100 ThinkPad that will likely last you 7-10 years unless it breaks first. What are you investing in for $1,087?
For $2,734 and ~8 months, I can have a high-end laptop, not the most expensive options, but my personal preference to tide me over for 10 years. Is whatever I’m looking for worth $2,200? Possibly.
- For hardware I can have schematics to, after signing an NDA.
- For hackability.
- For a laptop I won’t void the warranty for fixing.
- For never having to remove 17 screw, 5 stickers, 5 more screws, an excessive amount of plastic tabs, and possibly adhesive.
- For almost indefinite access to parts. Parts that won’t disappear from the market in 1-3 years, unless the company goes under. (Yay Cali for the 7 years of parts… we’ll see how toothy it is and how long it can withstand legal and technical sabotage. Like Apple’s software locks.)
- For a laptop with parts I like. (AMD open-sourcing like mad-lads, but not quite FLOSSing.)
- For a company that I can trust for a decade before they see the dollar dollar bills. Like Google, Facebook, Reddit, etc.
- For sustainably sourced parts.
- To support a company that won’t put me through a hoop circus just to tell me I have to buy a new product because they screwed up?
If I could get it in 30 days, maybe. If I have to wait a financial quarter, or 2, and a half… maybe I’ll wait until they ramp up production, and see what innovations they have in a year. (Related: The week I decided to buy, was legitimately the day they opened for Framework 16 orders, which I would’ve sworn was Framework 15. Must be losing my mind. In any case, maybe I’ll still get the 13 and save $500.)
Is it worth it for you? Depends on your financial situation and what you value.
In theory, you’re paying up front for their long-term loss by not driving conspicuous consumption with planned obsolescence. They lose out on at least 4x the cost of selling you entirely new devices every 5 years, and you get a computer that only requires a few hundred in repairs for the next 20 years.
In reality:
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new standards take hold all the time. Sorry, your laptop takes DDR7 RAM, everyone’s moved on to DDR10—which won’t cause a noticeable performance improvement, but it will give you FOMO because the numbers are bigger. So we’ve ceased manufacturing those old DDR7s; good luck with used DIMMs on ebay.
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Startups with amazing business models go under all the time. Sure, it may be “bad market strategy,” aka not being money-grubbing scrooges, and the resultant investor pull-out. It might be a lack of hype outside a niche market. It might be a hurricane. Too bad, ypur “lifetime” computer now has no one manufacturing parts. See also: what happens to early adopters of robotic prosthetics.
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Enshittification, plain and simple. That idealistic company that was going to defeat the ills of capitalism by beating it at its own game? Well now the investors want their money, and the shareholders are upset as their stocks plummet. Time to start cutting costs and fucking over the users! Suddenly we’re okay with child slavery and nonfree firmware because it doesn’t violate our core value of sustainable laptops probably. Have a subscription about it.
And the longer it lasts, the more likely one or more of the above is to happen.
If you don’t mind that and just want to “send a message,” then go ahead. The more viable (profitable) Framework is, the more likely it is others will follow suit.
If you’re really just worried about e-waste and sustainable tech, buy used and fix it up. We’re past the point of Moore’s law where you’re missing out on meaningful performance gains if your device is a few years old, and have you see what people will throw away just because the screen is cracked?
If it’s about ethical business models, support non-profits. They don’t have the same financial incentive to enshittify. (They just have their own ecosystem of ethical issues)
Or get two birds stoned at once by joining/starting a non-profit tech mutual aid network, where you help maintain and upgrade each others’ tech.
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apple software locks?
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i was planning on getting a new laptop cheaply for about 500ish
What are you hoping to do with it? I got a used Thinkpad T480 that was like new for €180 and added a couple of upgrades to it (1TB NVMe, 64GB RAM, Intel AX200 Wi-Fi card) that cost me €137, meaning a total of €317, and I’m very happy with the laptop right now, it’s very responsive with Arch Linux and an i3 desktop and I think this baby will be good for many years.
Seconding a used Thinkpad. They are plenty modular/repairable compared to other laptops. I’ve got an X270 and it’s a great little machine.
where do you find used thinkpads online?
Amazon sells used thinkpads other than general age of the hardware love mine that I got for about $300
There are various ebay sellers who carry certified refurbished laptops with warranty included. You can also buy some directly from Lenovo.
Seconded, I have been very happy with my last 2 purchases of Acer refurbished laptops from the official Acer store on eBay.
Got mine on Ebay, and you usually have to be careful like with any purchase of a used item: ask for detailed photos if you can’t judge the state of the item from the photos that are there, ask questions about things that were left out in the description, look for sellers with very good ratings and look at their reviews, see if you can return etc…
Amazon also sells refurbished ones, but so far I’ve seen the best deals on Ebay.
EDIT: important, make sure the BIOS is unlocked.
whats so good about arch? is it faster?
due to the nature of arch and its rolling releases, it tends to get bleeding edge updates/features rather than having to wait for a major update to iron itself out then get rolled out. If you’re a gamer for example, if Valve fixes a bug in the gpu driver, then Arch would probably get it asap (especially given that Steam OS is arch based)
It’s just another distro that has gained a following more because of some perceived superiority than any truly practical reason. If you’re new to Linux I wouldn’t recommend it.
What’s good about it is that if you know what you’re doing you can install only what you need and keep your system small and tidy. Also, since it’s a rolling distro, updates become available really quick and sometimes some of the updates introduce optimizations (meaning more performance) or better power consumption. And finally of course Arch has also an amazing wiki, they have hands down the best Linux documentation along with Gentoo, and they even have a page about Thinkpads: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Laptop/Lenovo
Found it! surprised this wasn’t the top comment
there will always be a Thinkpad nerd to do the shilling in a laptops thread, just doing my job 😎
based and thinkpilled
bought a refurbished 5 year old Thinkpad via Amazon for $150. put linux on it, no regrets
Second hand ThinkPads are the way to go
I wanna do this and use it for my home assistant server.
How’d you find it on Amazon?
what should i look for when buying a thinkpad
A good general rule of thumb is to avoid the E and L series, and stick with the X, T or P series, or the X1 Carbons. Depending on your use case, choose one with the processor and display you want.
I have a T460 with linux on it that I use for work and it has been rock solid even when I spilled coffee on it.
i was planning on getting a new laptop cheaply for about 500ish
You should plan for what you need, not for what you’re willing to pay. If you need a mobile workstation then this 16 inch laptop would be too large and heavy. If you aim for a desktop replacement, then a 13 inch laptop might be too small (docking stations exist, but still …).
The Framework laptop is a nice idea, though. But to be honest: how often did you change the components of your laptops before? One usually changes the SSD and maybe the RAM or the battery or - if you’re really adventurous - the heatpipe and/or the fan. All of this is already possible with most common laptops. If you’re unsure, get a ThinkPad.
How often did you change the components of your laptop before?
Well that’s the point, ain’t it? You didn’t because you couldn’t. Now this laptop gives you a new plethora of opportunities.
I’ve changed the screen of a thinkpad from 720p to 1080p. Was cheaper to buy that way, and it was really easy to do.
I think you’re missing the point of the framework. Let’s say 6 years from now you want to upgrade to a more powerful CPU. Normally that means buying a whole new laptop. With the framework though you just buy a new board and keep all the other components. This saves money and lowers ewaste.
Is that realistic? Not a rhetorical question: I’m genuinely curious. I ask because the last time I tried to update a single (desktop) part, it was more cost-effective to replace the whole Pc and migrate the salvageable parts since the only thing I could have held onto would have been the ram, SSD, and PSU.
I suppose with a laptop you have the monitor to also consider, and admittedly I know nothing about laptop boards, but it just seems like 6 years is replacement time anyway, at least for a daily use computer.
When you replaced your whole PC what did you do with the replaced part?
The last time I replaced my PC the hardware was ca 12 years old and barely working. It went to the recycling center except the harddisk.
So far as your desktop, you can certainly upgrade your computer without it being more cost effective to do a whole new build. It really just depends on what you need. Mostly it comes down to the limitations of your motherboard.
Every so often they change the CPU socket required for new CPUs. So if you need a new CPU and you already have the best the socket on your mobo can do, then yeah you’re maybe looking at a new build at that point anyway. But otherwise you can just get an upgraded CPU of that socket. Similarly, eventually your motherboard won’t be able to support the latest version of RAM and if you need that you’ll have to replace the motherboard. So on and so forth.
Great in theory.
Keeping backwards compatible hardware is nearly impossible in reality. USB A 3.x is not the same hardware as USB A 2.X despite keeping form-factor backwards compatible.
Practical exercise: Find a board capable of swapping DDR4 RAM with DDR5 or vice versa.
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Yep. When the devices get older, I usually upgrade RAM (or install an SSD on very old hardware). Sometimes I even install a new battery.
And that’s the thing: I never ever had any issues doing this. Even the internal battery is just screwed in and connected with a removable plug.
While the Framework laptops are conceptually great, I just don’t see the use case in my world. It’s also pretty much vendor lock-in with the modules.
No.
I don’t trust a single modern platform to last long enough to justify an investment - the company will be acquired and shuttered or the base platform will be upgraded and the current deprecated. The company today can full-throatedly promise you the world, but they know they won’t be here tomorrow to answer for those promises and there are no consumer safeguards in place to hold the future leaders accountable should framework show profit potential and therefore become a target of acquisition to exploit that potential or to squash competition.
Framework is a fun, marketable idea, but Phonebloks / Project Ara me once, shame on you…
I never really saw a computer as an “investment”. They’re pure expenses as far as I’m concerned. Any of the ones I buy could break tomorrow. I don’t buy extended warranties, so outside the legal coverage, I’m SOL if something goes wrong anyway. Considering how bad repairability is with other brands anyway, it’s not like you’re throwing away much. Many of the components are just standard hardware, too - RAM, SSD…
Considering this, I don’t really see why I would deprive myself of buying something rather novel I’m interested in, given the product already showed some reliability, in fear of some potential hostile corporate takeover. YMMV, of course.
I agree. $500 to $1200 is the range at which I would not buy a warranty beyond the initial 12 months. I have purchased (and used) warranties for Mac laptops or PC desktops for work that cost over $2k. I can justify it on the Mac because there is usually one recall issue that needs repair (eg weird keyboard issue) but they otherwise have a long life. I’m at 5 years on my current machine with no plans to update. So many of the existing Framework laptops don’t have GPUs that I can’t understand why anyone would be excited about it. It’s a fun idea but feels like you’re paying a lot of money for the opportunity to pay more in the future.
Eh, I’m a fan of the principle that things should be serviceable. Framework is great in that regard. As for GPUs - my laptops are mostly work machines, and I don’t really need one past just displaying on multiple monitors and UHD/4k support, so most iGPUs are just fine for me. When it comes to laptops, tons of RAM+a decent build quality >>> most other things for me.
I’m in a similar situation as you are though, my current laptop is from 2018 and I don’t have any plans to upgrade short-term.
I think the best part of the Framework is that the parts are replaceable for sure. The keyboard replacement I got was free but if it weren’t it would be several hundred dollars. My dad had a key broken on his laptop and they asked for $700 to fix it. Absurd.
Huh, that’s a good take! Didn’t think about that.
It kind reminds me of the Oneplus brand. I loved the one plus (1) so I bought a Oneplus2 only for it to be put aside fairly quickly. I remember I used to suggest Oneplus to everybody, eventually I told everyone to stay away… Eventually the brand just lost it’s focus imo… Instead trying to pump out as much overpriced garbage as possible…
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Ara was the kill, Phonebloks was first hope and the actual promise that was suffocated by Google in that instance - we’ll absolutely count this here.
Likely, but I’m hoping they last a decade like usual. I’m only slight jaded, and have similar reservations from similar history. Google, Apple, Facebook, and Reddit all had similar ideals. (“Don’t Be Evil.” Part of open source before it was popular. “It’s your data. You control your data.” Freedom of speech/information and, “Bits are not a bug.”) [Insert Joke: “My back hurts” or “Get off my lawn.”]
The good news is Framwork is priced at near parity of Apple’s products, which makes them unlikely to be bought out; they’re much more likely to get too greedy, and compromise on their ideals.
They have been here tomorrow for people who bough one with an 11th generation Intel CPU in 2021. I don’t think they are looking to get acquired either.
Companies that are looking to get acquired don’t hold press conferences to announce, “we’re now ready to be acquired”. They typically build and acquire press wins to get attention until they are a thorn in the side of a market leader who then takes a meeting with them. It’s a quiet process, but the initial conversation is almost exclusively, “we’re building this for the long term and we plan to be around for a long time”.
Just like all the products that promise long or even “lifetime” warranties - for most of these tech startups, they are well aware that lifetime means “OUR” short lifetime as a company and not your lifetime as the consumer.
I’m seriously thinking about investing in one…I really like the idea of being able to upgrade and change the system and I/O ports. I also am beginning to think I want to switch to Linux over Windows as it gets more and more invasive.
For 1600 hopefully you get a frame and a long term use repairable machine you can upgrade as needed for years.
Simple answer yes long answer maybe
Not trying to poopoo on anyone here, but it seems neat… But at double your budget it’s just a neat toy. Can you afford that? If so, hell yes.
Otherwise you can find second hand laptops with great specs and upgrade that your self for cheaper.
I wish I could pull the trigger on one of these, but here I am just surfing eBay lol
The only downsides of framework that I have heard about are all software related bugs, meaning it just needs an update once a fix is released. As an example I heard it had some power management issues where the expandable slots drained the battery even is sleep mode, not sure if it was fix yet, but regardless it still sounds like a solid investment.
pretty sure another is theyre trying to get coreboot working on it
I’ve had mine (first generation 13" model) for over a year now. I’m very happy with it, and I intend to make it last me through university (3 years) and then some. I would consider it a good investment for me.
and for how long do you youll be able to upgrade kt for
At least five years. Even if the company goes under tomorrow, it’ll be a while before the mainboard is truly obsolete. The main “consumable” would be the battery, which I can probably hack a replacement for if official parts are no longer available.
For me it’s the only laptop that might entice me from leaving “the dark side” (Apple).
Would then install some Linux distro on it though.
If Linux supported all that proprietary software that I need (or am used to using), I’d have switched already… And in my gaming machine, I’ll be switching, if Linux finally supports HDR
Yeah, that’s mainly it indeed. For now my laptop works fine and I am not in need of a new one. But if it stops working, I might just switch. And the better than Mac gaming support would already be nice.
I’d get a cheaper laptop for $400 or so (Walmart/BestBuy have those with decent specs), add in some more RAM and swap the NVMe. True, no Coreboot (wait, do you get Framework laptops with Coreboot?), but otherwise better value for the money
Just saw a video on YouTube where someone built a cyberdeck using the framework mainboard and accessories. Had me really intrigued that you can buy into a laptop ecosystem that basically enables hacking, too.
link vid please
Here you are: Link
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